Fight or Flight: The Human Response to Trauma

Speaker 1: 0:08

Welcome to real talk. I am, and and tina is still out with life things and I told her not to worry about it right now, but I'm you know the show has to keep going and she's fine with that. I actually just got to be a zombie with her for halloween in this thriller, like flash mob style dance through the streets of our town, and we had so much fun. I know that she's doing really, really well but, like I said, she just has a lot going on and she's taken a break. But in the meantime, we have denise back and we are so excited that she is here today because, you know, we actually get to see her in person. I mean, we normally don't do this video thing, so, but we're gonna be doing this. So denise is back and we're gonna be talking to her about the topic fight or flight. There actually many parts to this. There is fight, flight, frozen and this term called funny, which you know I never heard about before. I mean, I guess I realized when I looked it up what it meant, everything that I didn't know about it, but I didn't know that it was called funny. But, denise, you and I share a lot in common and that we both have gone through a lot of abuse and I think that, whether you have had one episode of complete tear or trauma, or a lifetime of it, I think most of us can relate to these terms to some extent. We have coping mechanisms and even the basic of life's fears, and, amazingly, our bodies do what it needs to in order to survive denise. I have to be honest, I heard something in our podcast last time that I completely missed when we were taping, and I want to apologize to you for that, because I have to tell you that if I heard you say that your mom would take you to the worst of places and she took you as a form of payment I don't know why I didn't hear that and the second I listened back and I heard it, my jaw dropped and the first thing I wanted to say to you was I'm sorry, because I would have said something to you if I would have caught that. I just missed that one little Payment and I guess I I never donned on me what you were saying, but I can imagine what you went through when that happened. I mean, how old were you when that happened and what did your body do in that situation in order to just get through it.

Speaker 2: 2:57

Yeah, I'm so. My first solid memories really are back when I was four. A lot of people can't understand that, and I can either, but I can I can tell you is for cuz I can detail so many things out and I would say that that probably started a lot earlier. I'm based upon just some clips and pictures that I had seen and the look on my face and where I was. I have to believe that I was probably put in that situation before I was four do you know when you were in that situation?

Speaker 1: 3:29

can you, I mean, as we're talking about fighter flight today, can you actually figure out which, what your body was doing? I mean, there's a term called dissociation. To you know? I mean, do you know how you might have handled it in that situation? Do you have any memory of that?

Speaker 2: 3:48

Yeah, it's funny because when I recall things, especially specific things, and I can detail them out, I mean, like I can detail them down to what I felt the smell, the site, sound, the colors I can tell all that. And I absolutely had a fear and pounding like I would know prior, because I kind of knew where we were going and I didn't know location wise, but I knew that it wasn't gonna be where I wanted it to be. And I remember just pounding in my heart and so it was. It was definitely. I couldn't get away from it. So I was kind of stuck in that. So whether it was fighter flight, I definitely like I think as I got older it was probably the flight, as I tried to get away from things right. Right, it's kind of like you. You, I guess the only thing I could do is fight. But my fight was internal, so it wasn't physically something I could do on the outside, so internal, it was just shutting everything down when I could, because there's a lot of times, you know, you can't, you're in that moment, especially the situations and position she put me in. You know, as I grew older and I was in different positions, situations I could, I shut everything out and I just want to Into those moments when those teachers, you know what, say something, make me feel it I would just cut out what was in front of me and I focus on the storyline inside of me, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 5:26

Yeah, I know what I mean. I have been in that situation many, many times. I have lived most of my life until I hit the age Ages of lake forty I would say maybe a little bit before that. But honestly, I lived, I done both. I mean, I've done fight and I've done flight. I really do not know how in the world I made it. Sometimes, you know, I have, I have thoughts, I have thought about that. I mean, it just amazes me, like what we were saying about the body, just amazes me what the body can do in order to make it. But it's a hard place to live and, yeah, it is so exhausting having like twenty eyes all the time everywhere, being so hyper vigilant, trying not to miss something, because you're always feeling like something's going to attack you. I mean, would you say that that is a fair assessment for you?

Speaker 2: 6:29

Oh yeah, like I am, I think my whole life it's. I'm ten steps ahead. You always have to be prepared. You know I would you look at the worst case scenario and how are you gonna react to it? I never got the opportunity to think of the best case scenario, as most of the time it wasn't the best case, but as I've grown older I still do it like I find going to room, I'm already prepared. What do I? You know who, what, where. I go by that gut feeling, you know I got you know right, so you know like you just get a feeling from somebody, but you are, I am ten steps ahead now. As a kid it was always I had to think of the worst because I didn't, like, you don't know what the best is. If you don't know what that is, then you're focused on that bad. And obviously as I got older but man, I have a lot of flight times as I've grown, the flight I was definitely been in there.

Speaker 1: 7:31

Yeah, I, you know. Oh, my gosh, it is so crazy that you're saying all this, because when I walk in a room, man, I'm already scanning, yeah, and I wanna know. I mean, before I go into any other, any situation, I wanna know who's gonna be there, where I'm gonna sit. I always put my back to the wall, I always make sure that I'm in a position that and I don't know if I really feel like I need to run out of the room or, but I try to place myself where there's not too much between manador. I always thought, well, because I'm also autistic at the same time, you know, I thought that it had something to do with that too, because I really don't. I am a big space person, I need my space, yeah, but I think that the trauma made that worse. Of course, now, one of the things now, fighter flight can manifest itself in so many different ways and it's kind of interesting because my daughter, who's eight, now all three of my kids that I've adopted, I will have adopted five kids, but I'm raising my three grandkids who are now you know they're my kids, cuz adopted them and they have so much trauma. But when I, you know, talk about triggers, she got triggered recently pretty badly and what ended up happening is she used to have a situation where she would run away and that a lot. I mean she eloped like fifteen times last summer because she had something pretty traumatic happen to her and it kinda took me back to when Before, when she was eighteen months, she had a really bad situation and she ended up Like fifteen, sixteen months, seventeen months, she was finding her way out of where the living conditions that she was in before and she was even found on the streets by the police naked and she just always had it in her where. I mean, she just wanted to run from that situation and she was recently triggered and so she just started running all over my house and she was just, you know she. Also there was a fight, for sure, because she was instantly arguing with us about every little thing and she was just in my face and she was screaming at us and none of it made sense because she was so over the top with every little thing I mean it wasn't fitting what was really going on. So I knew that there was something else going on with her and the school called right after that. It happened and they said that, you know, she was hitting her head or trying to hit her head, and they didn't feel that she was safe trying to get home, I don't know, and so that's what they did. But you know, I mean, it can just come out and so many different ways, and I don't think that people really realize that what's happening with them is fighter flight.

Speaker 2: 10:49

That's fair to say. I mean, that's that's it. Like you know, when I was younger I didn't know that, but it's interesting. You said the fight and the argumentative. I was that way and you know, maybe, that I mean, yeah, it was weird, cause when you say argumentative I'm like man, was I very argumentative? I mean to the point where, when I was in sixth grade, I won the award for the lawyer of the year, cause I can argue anything. So perhaps that was it. But yeah, I think, um, we the triggers, you just don't know how you're going to respond to it.

Speaker 1: 11:27

Yeah, I would always shut down. I mean, I think that that was my I don't know if that's flight I don't like an internal flight but I mean I've been in and I would unfortunately put myself into situations that would almost repeat the abuse. Uh, and so then I found myself in situations where that would happen and then, instead of being able to fight physically or being able to say no or whatever, what would end up happening? As I would end up going so closed inward and internally and I would shut down. So I look at that maybe as another form of being able to how your body reacts to the stress of what's happening.

Speaker 2: 12:14

Yeah, I think that that's true. I think you know you're right, like fight or flight, there's got to be something within that that we do to fight something or flight. You know, right, right, I was the same way, well, except I was, I think, when I got to sixth grade in that middle school time and my thing was fighting if I didn't like the situation or something provoked. To me I was easy to fight versus to calm down and self-regulate and figure things out. It was just an automatic, like you went from zero to 60. You know what I mean and you know. And there were I could tell you tons of times like and I can again, like I always put myself in that moment, like I remember the moment and I remember how I felt. So feelings are one thing and I, you know that flight just came in there. So I knew where I did the flight, but I never really knew where I was to fight or how that connected until we started talking about that prior and I'm like, oh my God, that is a fight thing. So I was more on the outside.

Speaker 1: 13:27

So yeah, it's funny that you mentioned sixth grade. Sixth grade was a big turning point for me, yeah, and you know my dad died when I was in sixth grade, so it was a really horrible time for me. But how I handled it was, you know, I think, that I just started running away from everybody and everything and keeping everybody at such a distance that I shut down even more and more, to the point where I really did lose myself. And you know it's hard enough to be in sixth grade, oh yes, oh yeah, Going into seventh and eighth, which is, you know, the hardest years for any kid. But then you put trauma on top of it, and you know I had this big loss on top of the trauma that I had already experienced. So you put all that on top of it and it's just like it is freaking hard to grow up and to navigate the world when you're a kid that's going through abuse.

Speaker 2: 14:34

Oh sure, I always said that it's you're just trying to survive. You're having a hard enough time, like at school. You're trying to survive the school situation, especially in middle school. You know you're trying to survive in that arena and then you come home and now you have to survive there. It's like you were battling in two separate worlds. So where's the world that you can not battle in?

Speaker 1: 14:58

Right, yeah. And then you have to learn. You know, I mean, you're put into an environment where you have to learn and pay attention to the teachers, and I actually you have a teacher say to me why are you the only one in the classroom not taking notes? And you know, and it's just like, well, my gosh. Let me tell you why. You know, but you know I really didn't do that. I just said I don't know, but in hindsight you know I. Maybe I really didn't know at that moment because I didn't I. But now, as an adult, I can look back and I can say well, you know. Let me give you a list of why I wasn't able to perform the way that I needed to in school, the way you know the kids around me are doing.

Speaker 2: 15:47

So, yeah, when I so most of my kindergarten years, so from the time I was born until 12, which is when I went into middle school I was bounced back and forth so it wasn't constant with my mom, and every time I was, you know, that's where all the chaos came in. My grandmother was a very manipulative person, so it wasn't. It was just a different type of abuse and a different type of trauma to go through. So, you know, trying to navigate those two worlds were kind of complicated. But for my elementary school years I was that kid who got on a roll. I wasn't the smartest, but I still made honor. I did. You know, I was the kid that did well. Like you know, I wasn't in trouble. I got in trouble in like fifth grade, but, like my, my getting in trouble was I was chatty. I like to talk too much, that was my, you know my thing. But it's like when I hit sixth grade I had moved in full time and it just went a different way and so my grades started failing and falling off. It was all these signs that, like you said, you look back and you're like, oh my God, how did no one know that? But you're going from one school to the next so nobody knows your prior. So I do think my elementary school did kind of give warning to my middle school, especially the counselors, because they right away came in. But it's still wasn't. I don't want to say enough, but it maybe wasn't enough because I was thrown back with my mom. So I'm learning how to fight and navigate and do all that stuff. But yeah, I mean my grades. I really it was like I was just there to be there in person.

Speaker 1: 17:35

You know I don't know. I've gone through a lot and I still struggle with being able to. You know, I'm not that person, I'm an adult. You know there's been so much time that's passed and I really don't even hardly ever think about that. What happened to me. I mean I really it's very rarely there, but the you said in one of the episodes that you have, the forgiving thing, isn't there. I mean you don't think that you can forgive. I mean, when I look at what happened with your mom and what the situations that she put you in, I mean okay, she's a teenager, I get it. She's young, she's making bad choices and that can happen. You enter, you know you put drugs into the situation, it makes it worse. But I just can't fathom, no matter what as a mom, no matter how old you are, no matter what else you want to put in the, you know the scenario of being a parent. There is nothing that would make me think, yeah, I'm going to sell my child so I can have drugs. I just can't imagine and I, you know, I'm a person that really believes yeah, to let it go, try to forgive, try to move on. But that's a tough one, yeah, and I think that that's the thing.

Speaker 2: 19:11

I think that there are people that can forgive and, and you know, I think we each kind of go through whichever way we need to to kind of further ourselves in life. But I got stuck because I kept hearing everybody well, you have to learn to forgive, because that's the only way you're going to heal. You have to learn to forgive. I'm like, well, that is a how do you forgive someone for that? And you know, I understand that her life, probably growing up, was not ideal and I'm sure she had gone through things. But again, I think about myself and all the things I went through. I do not repeat anything with my kids. I can't like you because I'm not a parent Like you. I cannot fathom being that way. So I came to accept number one, that I don't have to forgive because I can't. But that doesn't mean that I can't still be on the journey to healing, because it's, it's that, um, I hear so much about, oh, I forgive and that's how I can move on. Well, my thing about how I move on is that I just don't give her the power in those situations, right? So it's. It's saying well, you don't have control anymore, I don't have to forgive you, but I don't have to constantly make you in every thought and every moment, and I did think, I do think that that came really um, once I I cut off contact with her and then it grew more and more evident that that's what I needed to do as I've gotten older. So I'm okay for not forgiving, and I know that there's a lot of people out there that are probably stuck, like myself, who had constantly heard you have to forgive to move on. No, you don't. We don't all have to do that, and it's okay not to be the person that says, well, I could forgive, because, like I said, you know these situations there. You cannot change your perspective on there. You cannot like come up with an answer as to, well, I'm so sorry that you, you know, went through, yada, yada, yada, um. So, no, I don't forgive, but I know that I'm going to still heal. I just have to um make in my mind that, even though I don't forgive you, I don't have to have you in my every thought and every moment. Right, and that is something that I will continue to um grow as I, as I get older. I don't think that there's an end point to that, even if you forgive, I think that there's still people who you know um grapple with that. So, yeah, I mean you know, that was one of the things that, with my speaking and and being able to connect with other survivors like I know, for me, I would have needed to hear that you know, in order for me to be able to move on and say no, I can, you know, not forgive yet still grow and heal.

Speaker 1: 22:11

Well, everybody's journey is different. Yeah, I mean we can't what works for you and we. There's no canned way of being able to handle a situation like this. I mean it's everybody has to handle it. Correct, they need to handle it for them. Yeah, and, and you know, I mean I went to counseling for a very short period of time and, um, you know, and there's some people that say, oh, you have to go that route in order to heal too, and I don't believe that. Um, I, I've done a lot of uh self healing, a lot of self work. I got a master's degree in counseling and I did everything that I did was actually helping me by helping others. I was actually helping myself and I wasn't even realizing it. I mean, when I was sitting in the jail, um, as uh somebody helping the women that were in the jail, I would go in and, um, fortunately, my job took me to many places where women were hurting and it took me as the director of a battered woman's shelter, rape crisis center. I also worked in the jail where I got to hold hands with some uh women who really were going through some difficult times and they were nothing but their abuse from their past. And you know, and the definitions that def who defined them was their abuse and the things that they did uh, because there they were sitting in jail and it was trying to break through all of that to let them know. No, you know, you're still a very special human being and, yes, you might have done this or you might have actually killed somebody, because that was, um, one of the my favorite women in the jail of all time was somebody who had done that and was going to be serving most of her life in jail after that. But you know, she taught me so much, you know, and we just broke through those barriers and just being able to help her helped me. So there is no certain path to healing. At least that's what I have found and I also I mean about the forgiveness thing. I mean, it's something that I've had to do in order to move forward, but I have learned that I'm not going I rid of toxicity. You know, if you're, I don't want toxic in my life period. I've had to get rid of some I don't like that word get rid of. They're not in my life right now, because it's just the right decision for me at this moment. Now I had a very, very, very toxic mom and adopted mom, so toxic that I was so loyal to a fault and I gave up my life. I gave up so much of my dreams and you know the directions that I thought I was going to go in. I didn't, because my dad had died and I felt that, you know, I needed to take care of her and the abuse continued pretty much all the way until she passed away, but from the time that she passed away in 2008. I actually I got a tattoo and I mean it's kind of. I fortunately were on video, but it's, you know, it's a dove in flight with God's hands letting go of the dove, and it was kind of twofold. It was like, you know, she was being released into the heavens, but it was also I was being free Release, yeah, and I was. I could breathe and I you know this is a crazy thing to say, but it was like the day that she died was the day that I started living and you know it was really therapeutic for me to be able to then start working on me, that's so again another.

Speaker 2: 26:23

Just weird that we have the similarities. So I too, for a God, probably going into my like early twenties, even though, like I, you know, I would. So every time I looked at my mom I saw sexual abuse. It was like spacing your sexual loser all the time. And that's really difficult as a child, especially if you can't tell people because you were told that what was happening to you was normal. And if you, you know, and people are going to think you're sick, if you would tell somebody that not that they ever, you know, confess to their doings. Because in her mind I had, and I quote, a cookie cutter, cookie cutter life. And I tell you she said that to me, those exact words. So her ability to function was definitely not in realistic time. And so there was a time I was in cause. I didn't think I would ever get to the age of 21. I just didn't think I would live. And so I was in counseling at that time and my counselor said two things how does it feel that you actually made it to the age you never thought you did? But the second thing was, she would say, in order for you to well heal, I guess in order for you to separate. You have to let her go. You have to, like, get out. I mean, she was the first person to tell me that you cannot stay in this situation, and I remember saying well, my mother's so naive and people take advantage of her. Somebody's got to protect her, yet she wasn't protecting me, but yet I wanted to protect her, so I went through. That Isn't that crazy?

Speaker 1: 28:08

Yes, Isn't that?

Speaker 2: 28:09

crazy Way to get better. So it was when I was it was 2014, when I was holding my son. He was just getting over a seizure. I was sitting on the floor and I was getting texts constantly and it was F you, you're sick, you're this, you're that from her. And so it was like I'm holding my son. I looked at him and I looked at that phone. I'm like I finally had the courage. Now, granted, I wasn't in New Jersey where I grew up, where she was. I was in Nebraska because my husband was in the Air Force and we were stationed there. So part of that gave me courage, knowing that at least I'm over here and I could cut everything. There was a freeing feeling with that and it really didn't. I still struggled with it because there was that fear. I got to go back to New Jersey. I'm gonna have to do this. Well, I see her. How do I separate myself? So I still had that constant egg shells. You're constantly walking on egg shells, but it was a couple of years ago that I forget how many like 2017, maybe it was 2018, she called social services on me because I hadn't had contact with her and my kids have medical conditions genetic, something. I cannot do whatever, and she I couldn't. I never allowed her to have contact with them or me. I just never told them anything. They knew her for a period of time they knew who she was, but when we moved that faded. So we just never talked about her. So I never said anything bad to my kids, we just didn't talk about her, right and so when a couple of years ago there was an article in the paper because my son got involved with this program where he becomes a member of a college team and so they get to interview things and medically the newspaper, when I said oh, he's had so many procedures, she thought it was they've read it in there as one procedure. But my son's had brain surgery, he's that multiple MRI. There's just a ton of stuff. Well, somebody read it and she decided she was gonna call social services saying I had Munchausen by proxy and I waited for that call. And actually I even said to the case manager when she called I've been waiting for you and she's like you have and I'm like, absolutely, I know this day was going to come. Plus, she had called different people, but that again that couple years down the road she tried to manipulate herself into my daughters' email boxes and my daughter's like. I never really again talked to her about it. But we had to say something to her because social service was gonna come and talk to her and my husband and I were like, listen, there were choices made that we had to do to protect you and why? Because sometimes people make bad choices. And that was all we said. We didn't say anything else because she needed to answer them accordingly. We had nothing to fear, nothing to hide. I mean it is according and the geneticists and all the doctors were mad that this even happened. So of course they like said there was no way that this whatever. But I tell you that because I had to go to court. I finally had the courage to go to court and I wanted a restraining order and unfortunately, the whole court she was on the phone cause obviously different states. It was so chaotic. Even the judge was like what the heck is happening? To say that it ended up being where. The judge was like how long do you want this to happen? And I was like how long can you give me a restraining order from? And she's like only two years. She said, but I would like to put into place a no contact order, but you have to agree to that too. And I was like absolutely, I have no reason to contact her, I want her to not be in our lives, non-existent. And so the day that that judge did that, I became free, like on that part. But I still had my grandmother in about a year. So I was already free now from my mother, but I still had to navigate my way through my grandmother and I did have to take her for a while. She had a metal thing and she got dementia and from like over whatever. But the day she died I didn't cry, it was like I took a deep breath and finally, finally, I was like and that's when, I became free. So I know that was a lot to say that, but it led up to I had to free myself from two people.

Speaker 1: 33:17

Well, I was at my mom's, my adopted mom's, deathbed. Okay, it was coming to midnight and it was getting close and we were in the hospital, we were on the palliative floor, and so the nurses start coming in and everything, and I did not go up and hold her hand, I did not go near her, I stayed at the end of the bed and I have felt a little bit guilty for that. But I never would touch her. I'm always, you know, I would always keep my distance and that didn't go away when she was passing away. I mean, like I said, I guess there is a little bit, I mean, that feels guilty about that. I was in the room and so was one of my daughters, and then, when I go, I went over and I mean the nurse went over. Sorry, the nurse went over to her and noticed I wasn't doing anything, so she held her hand as she passed away and then she said to me do you want some time? Do you need to? And I went no, I'm good. What do we need to do here? Do I need to sign something? Do we need it? And she's like, yeah, you need to. And so I was like, okay, we did that, and I said, all right, bye, I mean, I don't know, it's just, and I've often thought about that. And also I want to say, as far as, like, I got that tattoo. And then do you know that one of her friends who saw the tattoo, she tried to like remind me of who she was, and that she said, not knowing that that's what she was doing. She said to me now, would your mom have approved of that tattoo? And I was just like, well, no, and that's why I got it, you know, I mean just but but yeah, I mean, you're not going to control me from the grave. I mean and unfortunately that does happen yeah, the person who does pass away where there was a lot of abuse, they do end up controlling us, even from the grave and the amount of in that fight or flight and everything else that goes in it, when they did all that stuff to us lots of times. It doesn't just go away because they pass away.

Speaker 2: 36:06

Right. Right, I think it's triggers, right, it doesn't like you said, they go away, like my mother's away, but I still that control comes in the trigger form. I think that that I think that's fair to say. So those fight or flight moments, with death or with you know taking them out of the scenario, it doesn't matter, they're still going to be that trigger. When there is that trigger, you automatically go to one of those.

Speaker 1: 36:35

You know, that's my thought.

Speaker 2: 36:37

You know. So you're right, it's not. You know, my, my grandmother being in the grave. I mean I don't have a lot of triggers for her, she was just very manipulative. My triggers really come from my mother, who is still alive. But again, with that, no contact order. There is a freeing of that, you know. But yeah, you sit. But again, like, even though she's not here doesn't mean I don't get triggered and it doesn't mean I don't have an automatic response.

Speaker 1: 37:09

Well, I agree, I don't have her. It creates a level of safety for you.

Speaker 2: 37:14

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:16

I mean she can't contact you. That must make you feel safer, not that she's going to do to you the things that she used to do, but I mean when you're in the presence of somebody who has done such significant, horrible, horrific things to you, I would think that them just being in your presence or even knowing that they can make that phone call and you'd look at your phone and there they are. You know I mean that it's. It would do the same thing to me that it did when the abuse occurred. Yeah, it would make me feel that, those same feelings.

Speaker 2: 37:55

It's like that with pictures. You know that I don't have any pictures of her. But now with social media, sometimes and I'm still connected with not a lot of my family my family disowned me, which perfectly fine, it's the toxicity that I got rid of. So they did that for me, for favor. But there's a couple cousins who I do have online and one of which or two of which that I'm close with and I say close like I can. You know they have my back. You know my one cousin and I have my cousin Kim. She will always go up and battle for me. Somebody says something about me. She's right there to say uh-uh, you know, and she doesn't post pictures. I don't think she. Well, I know she doesn't like my mother, but there have been other people that those pictures came up and even though my grandmother and my mother weren't talking, she still had pictures of her in the house and no matter that I have that freedom and that no contact order, as soon as I saw the pictures, the fear, the pounding in my heart came back, and anytime it's like that pounding, like you have no control over that reaction of you. Know and right, I mean in the big picture I'm not, I should not get a phone call and I shouldn't get this or that. Now, we never know if that will ever happen, but it's still. There is a level of uncertainty, and I think I'll always have a level of fear, you know, and I don't know that I'll get rid of that, but that's that's, that's there, and so, yeah, I don't know. So I go through that emotion as well.

Speaker 1: 39:45

Well, you talked about your heart pounding, so let's look at what fight or flight is Now. This is from psychologytoolscom. The fight or flight reaction is associated with activation of the sympathetic nervous system, which is best known for its roles in responding to dangerous or stressful situations. In these situations, your sympathetic nervous system activates to speed up your heart rate, deliver more blood to areas of your body that need more oxygen or other responses to help you get out of danger, and I find that really interesting. By the way, I mean that that's what our bodies do. So this is an actual physical reaction to an external event or perception of what is happening. So I would think this is not a good place to live in. For a very long period of time, which I have done for years and years, I mean, I lived like that, but I know for me it definitely was affecting me physically. So did you have that happen to you? Where you actually had it happen to you, so much so that you felt like this physical feeling?

Speaker 2: 41:12

Oh yeah, oh yeah, like the panic and anxiety you almost feel like you're dying inside. I mean, yeah, the heart pounding thing, that's hard, like you know, because it's almost like when you have that, everything else is affected, everything else is affected. And so there was actually a time where it was the first time I remember I was in the car and I'll say this because this is one of the, because it goes along with this is my grandmother said something. I was in the back of the car with my mother and my grandmother said something about my weight and telling me I'm whatever, and I remember this anxiety. It was almost like that's where it began, like really, with all of the circulation, things, like I had a panic attack and I was, you know, my hands turned yellow and things like that, and I knew, or I noticed and recognize that in that fight or flight I would get the same exact thing. It was like, you know, I don't know, it's true, like my hands went pale, but it's that circulation thing. And so I know, when I'm in any position or any moment where I start to panic, it's all those things your heart pounds. And then I look at my hands because it's a natural thing and I'm like, oh my God, I'm not, you know. And so yeah, I think it definitely. It makes us sick. You know what I mean? They say that stress and all that can really affect your physical being, and that is I mean absolutely.

Speaker 1: 42:48

So let's look at some of the physical effects that it actually says. We did mention the heart, because you have an increased heart rate, which affects the blood vessels, the blood flow and our oxygen and energy level to the heart, which affects circulation. So fight or flight actually dilates blood vessels that are serving muscles and constricts blood vessels to our digestion, which I would have never even thought about that anyway. I mean it affects the availability of oxygen to our skeletal muscles and our brain. Our lungs are affected with increased breathing and increased oxygen to the blood, and also it affects the liver. I mean it just affects so much of our body systems. Our skin becomes pale, which you talked about, or as flushed, as blood flow is being taken away from the non essential parts of our body to go to the other parts. Our eyes dilate so more light can come in so we can actually see better. I mean, isn't that crazy? Because I've never really even thought of any of? I mean some of it, obviously with the heart, but I mean, whether you believe in God or not, I mean to me this just shows how miraculously our bodies have been put together for all this to happen to help us deal with a threat or a perceived threat to me. I mean it's miraculous that God or you know that knew what our bodies would need in times of threat. I mean that's just amazing and it just proves to how hard our bodies work in order for us to stay alive.

Speaker 2: 44:42

Oh yeah, it's like a survival tactic. Bye, you know, it's given us to be able to survive.

Speaker 1: 44:49

Right, I mean WebMD actually adds more physical reactions to fight that. We are all familiar with stuff that we know. I mean like tight jaw, grinding of our teeth, an urge to punch something or someone. I mean that's kind of funny. But yeah, I mean, to protect yourself a feeling of intense anger, you need to stomp or kick crying in anger, a burning or knotted sensation in your stomach. I mean, just all of this is our way of trying to make it through this difficult situation.

Speaker 2: 45:27

Yeah, and I want to say something to that. It's funny because the feeling of intense anger and the punching I did do that I used to have, that, you know, I would, you know, almost knock my knuckles onto a chair, whatever it was. It was like I needed to physically feel something. You know what I mean, and it was. It's crazy because that is exactly what I used to do and I used to fight, which probably wasn't the best thing, but you mean physically fight with other people. Physically. Yeah, yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1: 46:04

I spent a little, oh I don't picture you doing that.

Speaker 2: 46:06

Oh yeah, I spent middle school years getting into fights, left him right and no excuses. But man like I would battle if somebody said go, you know, take care of this person. Okay, and it was like an outlet for me, no excuses. I don't understand that that is, you know, not an excuse, but that's what transpired. Like that, that range of anger was a release to be able to like. You know, that was my fight. I'm going to fight through it. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 46:40

I would hit walls, I mean, and I you know it's been a really really long time since I did that, but you know we used to. This is kind of funny, but in other places that I've lived not here, but we had pictures in like the strangest places because there would be a hole in a wall. Yeah, I mean it didn't happen very often and I really, like I said I haven't done it. I can remember the last time I did that but yeah, I did used to do that.

Speaker 2: 47:10

So oh yeah, you know, when I couldn't physically punch something and I this is what I do I still do this. In my mind I picture a batting cage and because I played soft and hitting like, I literally still do this. So if I get to the point of anger or rage or for me it's rethinking about those moments that I should have done something different, and I get so mad because of something I did, in my brain I go to the ball is the problem and my bat is just my anger at it. I know it sounds crazy, but that's what and I still do that. I still do that. So it's better than you know.

Speaker 1: 47:58

Whatever, WebMD states that flight is your body's way of knowing it can't overcome the danger, so it runs. And so then there's this adrenaline which allows the body to do things that it normally can't do. When faster, longer heard of people even being able to lift up a car, I mean I, you know, I mean I don't know if you've heard that, but I mean when I, when I think of that, yeah, I mean adrenaline is what comes into my mind.

Speaker 2: 48:36

Yeah, and I think it even says excessive exercise, feeling fidgety, tense or trapped, constantly moving your legs.

Speaker 1: 48:47

Oh my gosh, I do that.

Speaker 2: 48:48

Yeah, restless body, feeling numbness in your arms and legs, dilated eyes, which I think you said before. This is kind of funny because fidgety is my thing. I definitely fidget a lot and my I used to like I'll shake my leg. You know what I mean. Yeah, I'll just, you know, tap my leg or whatever, but I don't wiggle it. It's really crazy. It's a defined thing of what I do, because I get triggered if, like somebody's moving their, like their foot, you know doing this like they have their foot crossed, their legs crossed, and they do that. That's not a good thing for me. So for me, I do my you know my shaking of the leg, especially like in those situations where you want to leave and you can't, and you're like, how do I get out of this? How do I get out of this? I want to, I want to run, and so yeah, it is. It's like that restlessness and I'll tell you something else about the restlessness that that I think goes along with my polite. This restlessness is that, for instance, there was and I didn't really. First of all, I didn't understand the fight or flight until we were talking and I'm like, not today, but as we were talking before my daughter actually brought up fight or flight because she's in psychology for a psychology major was. There was a moment where I one summer spent a couple of weeks with a cousin of mine. She was a distant cousin. I had just met her. It was on my father's side, I didn't know them, there was everything you know came together and her and her husband had my my one cousin and I come stay because her and I had relatable situations. And then I went back by myself and this house. My cousin was like a greatest mom. She gave me the, the best role model to look at and say that's what I want to do. I mean very attentive to her kids. Her kids were number one. She would cook them lunch, she would sit down, they would say grace, and I had never done that before. So that was a little made me like cringe because I didn't know, like I didn't feel I was out of place, but something that happened and I realized this flight was. They argued about something and as soon as that happened I like hid behind a car and I'm 17, by the way, so my age was 17 and I went outside and they hit on the other side of the car and I just sat there and I planned how am I going to get back home? And I didn't want to go home, because I didn't want to go home to my mom, but I knew how to survive going home. So my instinct right away was anytime anyone and and I could recall even other times arguing if somebody was arguing around me, my first thing is to get out. Get out like whether, whatever it was, I don't want to be here anymore, I got to leave. So absolutely that, like I know that's one of my flight things because I just yeah, it was one of those where you just like, nope, I got to go, I got to go even when you can't, but you're like you know.

Speaker 1: 52:18

What's really interesting is you didn't think of that response. It just instantly happened without you even really knowing that you were going to do that.

Speaker 2: 52:27

Right. I didn't know, as until I was an adult, probably within the past couple of years, that it clicked. I was like, oh, this is what they were talking about with flight or fight. I'm like, oh yeah, I have a lot of things that I did flight.

Speaker 1: 52:39

Then you know, I mean it is just so interesting because even like the shaking of the legs and all that stuff, I mean this is just all stuff that I never would have even put together with flight. And so the things that we do with fight, I mean it's just I there. That's why I said at the very beginning I mean there are so many of us that do these things and I don't even really think that they realize that it has. It is fight or flight in some degree, from some of the trauma, or maybe even if they just went through one thing, that maybe that that's how it's coming out.

Speaker 2: 53:13

Yeah, I didn't know until we started. You know, we started looking at things and talking about this and the things that you had found online. I had no idea, because I don't think I. I think you know the flight with wanting to leave the situation of arguments that I get, yeah, but the other things, like I didn't understand what fight was completely and I didn't understand that, oh man, I had more flight in me than I thought. Yeah so yeah, I don't think there's a lot of people who who understand that, but I am sure they can relate.

Speaker 1: 53:47

Because I made myself stay in situations most of the time, no matter how bad it was, I would stay in the situation. My my way of and that's why I brought up association earlier was I would actually leave myself and you know you, always you, if you've heard of people being able to like be up somewhere and being able to look down and actually see it happening to you instead of it happening to you, you can just see it happening to you, because I would leave myself and I would find myself in situations, you know, having to deal with whatever was going on at the time. I would do that later in life. Now it's not something that I do now because I've done so much healing as you know it. It just doesn't affect our physical selves. It affects us psychologically as well.

Speaker 2: 54:48

Yeah, definitely. I think it's the psychological now, once you, once you get to where you said, with it healing, it's more of an understanding for me. I'm like, oh, even though I like I didn't know some of these responses, but I still I don't know, like I haven't been around a lot of people who argue with their, you know, I'm an adult, so the arguments would come out and the spouse or something, not my spouse, but like if I'm with friends, I don't know, think about that that my mind may be because I know I don't have to stay in the situation. I think we really face them when we don't have the ability to really be out of the situation. It's like that's kind of one of our things. But yeah, I don't, I don't think I get as much. Like I said, I'll still kind of overthink things, and when I overthink things I get out the bat and the ball, you know, and so that's my way of leaving the situation, kind of being outside of myself in that situation.

Speaker 1: 55:45

And it's funny that you use baseball, because I'm a swimmer and I picture myself diving into that water and stroke, stroke, stroke, stroke. You know, you know, pound it off of that wall. And I will do that in my mind to help me through things. So I mean, that's really interesting that we go to certain places of where the adrenaline or that strength in us has to be able to kick in in order for us to fight through it.

Speaker 2: 56:18

Yeah, and I think that that's, you know, and that helps us as adults too. First of all, it's just, it's something that we do for ourselves, right, and so it's not something that comes on the outside. You know, it's that silent thing that that is our coping skill.

Speaker 1: 56:37

Yeah, oh well, it's really interesting what our bodies and what we learn to do in order to survive and that we're all different. Psychologytoolscom states that we have reactions which are, you know, we just automatically react. When there's a scary or something dangerous happens, our brains and our bodies automatically react really fast and our thinking gets quicker and we start paying closer attention to what's scaring us and how we can escape that situation. Oh yeah, also, psychological responses include include our interpretations of what is going on with our body. For example, a panic attack can feel like a heart attack, and I've had panic attacks and they are terrifying and it's, you know, living in constant fear. I mean where it just affects your whole entire system when you're having that panic attack. Have you ever had one?

Speaker 2: 57:45

Oh, more than once. And it's funny because I got them. I don't want to say I kind of got them as an adult, but I did. And I think it's because mine were kind of triggered because of being a mom, because of not having a mom, so I would get anxious in situations because I I didn't know what to do. And because I didn't know what to do I started to panic. And because I started to panic, all these things came, you know, happen to me. But I know, I remember that it's when I was in Anchor House, in the nonprofit shelter. I remember getting it there and it was like I couldn't describe it, you know it was more of people looked at you and they're like I don't want to say they looked at you and and whatever, but it's, you know, you just have to calm down, you know, and they didn't understand what was going on with me on the inside, because it's something that we internalize and it just comes on the outside. So, oh, absolutely it is. It is heart pounding and as an adult and a mom, as you can imagine, to you have those moments because you're facing things that that and again. I know there's no manual on things, but when you've not had a, I guess, a role model to really do those things. Panic it's, it's like a trigger and because of the trigger, all of a sudden you're having the panic attacks because you don't know what to do.

Speaker 1: 59:18

Yeah, you know yeah, so, yeah, I well, I ended up at the doctor in my twenties and I was, I, you know, when it said that you feel like you're having a heart attack. I mean, I always felt like there was something wrong with my heart or something, and or just me in general, physically I and it was because I was living like that for so long. So I ended up at the doctor and they did every test. I mean they went, they did all these you know tests on my heart and everything, and there was nothing wrong with me. Yeah, it was just that I, you know, I was feeling this constant panic and it was affecting my heart. I mean, there wasn't anything wrong with my heart, but it was affecting my heart. I guess that that's the right way to put it.

Speaker 2: 1:00:08

Oh, yeah, yeah, and it's hard because you know you want an answer to something. Well, tell me that it's this. You don't want to believe that it's something psychological, but it's okay. I mean, as, as we understand these scenarios, but we still get that. Is it really that? Or are we just having now? Now I'm thinking, well, what's the panic about? And it could be something so minute, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:00:32

Right, you know fear, perceived or real, is real. I mean it's, it's real. No one could have convinced me that it wasn't real, that I had been hurt, I had been terrified and I just couldn't shake it. It was as real on day 20 as it was the day that it happened to me. I mean, it was as real months later, years later, and you know that is real trauma. However you want to define it, it's trauma coming out in a constant fear state.

Speaker 2: 1:01:10

Yeah, I am, it's. It's like I hate to keep going back to triggers, but when you have something that triggers you, you go into that. That. I mean, I always say you know that. What's the Maya Angelou thing? People will forget what you say, people forget what you do, but people will never forget how you made them feel. And when you go back to that feeling you're living in that moment, and as soon as you're living in that moment, because you're living in that particular moment, those reactions are as if you are in that moment. Yeah, you know so it doesn't matter how old.

Speaker 1: 1:01:49

you know, it just happens and that's that quote is so true and I still, to this day, remember the fear so clearly, so vividly, how I felt. Even though that you know those things are gone, I still remember it. I mean, it's interesting that you say that, because I remember the feeling probably more than anything else.

Speaker 2: 1:02:18

Yeah, so I've been writing, trying to write, I've been trying to write a book and I say trying, I'm still writing it, but I had found that, as I'm writing and I'm putting those particular things, I am going through that physical, you know. I start to feel my heart pound and you're, like, you know, almost shake, and you're not in the moment, but you remember, as you're saying, the moment. You are remembering that moment as if it's today, even if it's like now, and that goes back to the okay, stop, walk away, type thing, and I think that's why it's been taking me so long to do this book, because, like, I've had to take breaks and so, and you know, and I'll leave them put in there as I'm typing, I'm like, as I'm typing this, as I'm writing this, I am feeling that, the pounding, the this, the that, yeah, it's just, you go back into that moment because you'll never forget how something made you feel good or bad good or bad?

Speaker 1: 1:03:30

And it's interesting how fear can stay with you, I think, longer than I don't know. I mean, tina and I had this discussion many episodes back on which was stronger, you know, love or fear, and you know it was kind of an interesting debate. But because they're both very, very strong emotions, but when it comes down to it, fear is so debilitating and it can keep you from living and loving and being able to move forward in life, that I think that it, I mean it is probably one of the strongest emotions.

Speaker 2: 1:04:12

Oh yeah, I agree Because and again, like, I still have that fear. I mean I'm 48, I've not been in contact, but I still have that fear and I don't know, I don't know why. Well, I mean I don't know if I'll ever get over it, but it is there. It's that constant fear. And like you too, I I struggled. I struggled with moving forward because it was I allowed the fear to control me. And remember, I said before I don't, I don't forgive, but I don't let my allow myself to let that control me anymore. That's what I'm talking about. It was more of I have to learn and I'm still learning, I'm still growing with that. I don't think I'll ever stop because something's always going to trigger me back to that fear. But I think it was like a perfect scenario with my husband, because he wasn't from where I lived, he didn't have the same family that like I have, and so I think that, being able to be pulled out of certain situations, I had to disconnect myself from my past, which meant I had to kind of not allow that fear to be in. But yet I still did so. I still struggled, but that's where it's. You know, I'm working on taking control that that fear doesn't stop me anymore. You know I'll go to this. The fear of judgment. We have this fear of what we think people are saying about us and what we think people are thinking about us. That's fear. To me, failure isn't fear, but that is the biggest fear that I have and I still live with and it goes back to me not saying anything as I was growing up because I had that fear. So that is actually the one fear that continuously holds me back from things the speaking, you know, having, having, you know I could be on stage, but at some times this process of being the speaker stops you because of that fear. And so that's what I continue to work on to say that I can't allow that fear to control me anymore, because I have to let go of what I think people are saying, what I think people are doing because I think or people are thinking because I think. We have that, and that goes back and ties into our past too, because of not being able to talk about the abuse you know.

Speaker 1: 1:06:48

Oh well, secrets, yeah, I mean, I was told, yeah, I wasn't allowed to talk about this stuff. And when my sister was given into the system, I was told, basically, you know, you know, it's crazy making when you can see something happening and you're being told it's not happening. It's like the craziest thing and you can't speak about it, you can't tell other people, and so then when they wonder why, where is your sister, where did she go? And you can't even speak about it. Wow, yeah, I mean the secrets that we have to hold on to for many, many years after. Because that's what I did. Maybe that's why I, you know, we want to do things like this and be able to speak, and I want to tell you that you're really brave for being able to tell your story. And you know what? There's always going to be somebody thinking something somewhere. I mean, I was in a situation I don't know, it was a while ago that changed my whole perspective on that and I was living constantly on how this particular person felt about me and every I was doing everything I could to make them like me and nothing was ever enough or I always felt like I was doing something wrong when I really wasn't and so I have now. This is what I do, and every single time a situation happens like this, I tell myself this is temporary, this too shall pass this moment in time where I feel this doesn't really matter, because in, like you know, if you ignore what you think they're thinking or feeling at that particular moment, trust me and you act as if you didn't have that thought and just move forward, it really does go away. It really does so I ignore. It's kind of like that thought stopping that we talked about. Oh yeah, it's kind of like a thought stopping where I tell myself what I think that they're thinking doesn't matter, and I'm going to act as if I didn't even think that they're thinking that and I'm going to move from here. And every single time it just goes away. Whether they thought it or not, it just goes away and it doesn't affect our relationship whatsoever because I'm just making something out of nothing.

Speaker 2: 1:09:41

Yeah, I know, and people tell me that all the time and I think that that goes, that's that flight. And how I think about it is that you know when you're going to do something and all of a sudden, like you get into that mind thought of I don't want people to think about me that way and I don't want people to say something that way, so I'm going to stop everything and you fly away. It's like you're like okay, I'm out of here, I'm just not going to talk about it and I'm not going to think about it. That's that I was thinking about this today. I'm like God, that's a flight thing, but it does. It stops you from living and living authentically, living the way that you want and you perceive yourself to want to live, and it stops you at least those thoughts, and that's something that I continually I'm working on, and so that's probably the biggest struggle I have now as an adult and to allow myself to follow my dreams or, to you know, go after and do certain things. Because in my mind, that fear, which has been ingrained in me since I was little, worries you and I was told all the time, if you say something, people are going to think this way about you. If you say something, people are going to say stuff about you, and so that fear lives in you and every situation. So, had we been talking about the fight or flight, I'm like that's definitely has to fit in there with flight, because you're trying to get out of that feeling. So what do you have to do? Shut it down, don't do it anymore, just pretend like it never happened and you were. You know, you're not walking into it. So yeah, that's crazy, but I'm working on it. I'm working on it.

Speaker 1: 1:11:38

Well, I think that all of this stuff with trauma is a lifelong. I mean, we're always gonna be working on it, I mean, even though I feel like I've moved past most of it. Yeah, it's really interesting because all of a sudden, out of nowhere, something will come up that hadn't happened for years and I'm like, oh my gosh, I thought that was gone. Yeah so, yeah, that still happens to me. You know, in this one article on in, I had never really heard of this. Animals are Generally able to return to their normal mode of functioning once the danger is passed. However, humans are not and they might find themselves locked into the same Recurring pattern of response, tied in with the original danger or trauma. I mean, I find that so Interesting that animals have figured it out. Yeah, but we have we keep going back to the same recurring pattern.

Speaker 2: 1:12:44

Oh, oh, absolutely. I mean, that's, that's exactly that. And how do you break that? I'd like to be an animal, but I could be an animal and not have to think about it. It'd be great. It'd be great, but yeah, that's um, that is interesting. I don't know if I knew that, but but it is, we do. We do follow this pattern.

Speaker 1: 1:13:05

Yeah, I mean it says um, with humans there. Of course you know our medications. There's medications and psychological interventions to help us separate the trauma from our physiological and psychological reactions to something that is no longer there. So, yeah, I mean, it takes quite a bit to get us humans yeah, you know to realize that the trauma the fear is Is well, I, not the fear, because the fear is there but the trauma that causes our fear is no longer there, it's no longer in front of us. It takes a while.

Speaker 2: 1:13:47

Yeah, and that I think people need to know that and a lot of us don't think that you know you. You tend to think it's just you, you know, like. Why can other people get like I don't understand how they do that, or I wish I was like them. But in all reality you are, because we're all dealing with it. We just show it in different forms or maybe we've we've grown or grown through that section and we're just you know, continuously I. But, like you said, I think it's something we're always. There's always gonna be the work in progress.

Speaker 1: 1:14:22

And you know we really don't know what's going on with somebody. We really don't. And you know it was really funny because we always called it the the parking lot wave when we would get to church. You know, it was kind of like we're all going through what we're going through and or we're fighting in the car, but once we hit that parking lot, it's like fake it in front of everybody, masking whatever you want to call it. Yeah, we, we all do it because you know and that's one of the reasons why I love this podcast so much is because this is a place where we can be real and we don't have to do that. So, yeah, say whatever and anything is welcome.

Speaker 2: 1:15:05

Yeah, and I think that that's important because there's a lot of people out there that need to hear that, that you know that they share Something. I always go back to the relatability. It doesn't matter what what we've been through, our stories are never going to be exactly alike, but there's a relatability. So being able to Be real and say, yeah, this, this is. You know what's going on, so you know somebody out there is gonna hear that and be like, thank God, I'm not the only one, or someone's going to hear it, and learn from what we've gone through and maybe, you know, get ten steps ahead of where we were at that age.

Speaker 1: 1:15:47

Yeah, well, I mean, we've gone through it and If we can help one person, yeah, by sharing our story and letting them know you know you're not alone. So I mean, that's what the purpose of this is. This is the the purpose of you telling your story, and it's also healing for Ourselves. And it goes back to when, you know, we were told that we couldn't Talk, and now we have this platform and we can talk, and and we do have a lot of listeners and hopefully we are helping a lot of people, and that's Really what it's all about, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:16:27

Yeah, I think that this used, like you said, it's healing when you could start talking about it and we all have our Timing and when it's right for us and when we're comfortable, right, yeah, and maybe again from us being able to share in, in in this. We're human, for this is relatable and it's okay. It's okay, someone else is gonna find their voice a lot sooner right.

Speaker 1: 1:16:54

Well, I think that we have talked a lot in this episode. We have actually we have Two more terms to cover that we're gonna cover in another episode freezing and Fawning, which we did talk about at the very beginning, and we'll learn more about what that term means. But we want to end with a quote, like we always do in real talk with Tina, and your mindset is your primary weapon and that was by Jeff Cooper. What did you think about that quote?

Speaker 2: 1:17:30

Um, yeah, I never thought about that. That's something like. Now I got to think about how I'm gonna use that.

Speaker 1: 1:17:37

Well, you know my brain is what always gets me out of the most difficult situations, one my body wants to react, you know. I mean I can. Normally it's my brain that can get myself to calm and rest and start making sense of really what's going on around me, to try to Talk the rest of my body down. I guess you can say so. I mean that makes sense to me.

Speaker 2: 1:18:05

Yeah, and that that is true. They say I heard somebody say that All you need is what you already have. All you need is what you, you know, what you have in your mind, you know for, like, as you know, for the healing or for whatever. You don't need anybody else or anything else. It's you that you have to. You know. I don't want to say convince yourself, but yeah, I want you. It's interesting. I never really thought about your mind being the weapon, because it is what we think about, it's what we put in our head, whether we can calm ourselves down, you know, or maybe even ramp ourselves up.

Speaker 1: 1:18:44

Unfortunately, yeah, yeah, I, often I I mean I used to, because I went into counseling and psychology and all this stuff I mean it's it's been a very big interest of mine and why the brain does what it does. And you know, I and that thought stopping happened with me because when your brain Goes a certain path, you know a million times you've carved that in the brain. I mean there's actually like a you know, you've carved this thing in the brain and the thought is automatically going to go a certain way and you actually have to stop that thought and you have to have that same thought so many times and I forget what the number is for you to be able to make it go a different direction automatically. It's like in your focus.

Speaker 2: 1:19:36

Yeah, you use the word shift.

Speaker 1: 1:19:39

Yeah, right, yeah, I talked about that in that in a later, in an earlier episode. Yeah, but yeah, I mean our brains are so powerful and I think that if we can shift or whatever it is you want I mean it is my brain and my thoughts can take me in the worst situation and or or or think, like you said, like somebody's judging, or, and then you can take it to the absolute worst case scenario in your brain and it's like, oh my gosh, this person doesn't like me at all, you know. Or or you can bring it right back around to talking sense into yourself and saying you know, I need, I need to stop that. And and taking control over your brain, allowing your brain to go in the direction that it really needs to go. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's powerful.

Speaker 2: 1:20:37

It is, it is, yeah, that's. I think that's the work in progress.

Speaker 1: 1:20:41

Yeah, it is well. I really want to thank you, denise, for doing this with me, and we have Some more to talk about in another episode coming up, so you're definitely gonna be here again and I really appreciate you. I appreciate your bravery, because you are very brave for telling your story. You've got some tough stuff in there and, and, and there's other people that have gone through it, so I really pray that it can help other people, and I hope that it helps you too.

Speaker 2: 1:21:17

It's definitely I mean, it's definitely and that and that's my. You know, if it's helping me along the way and if I'm helping someone else, then we're both. We're both going the way we need to go.

Speaker 1: 1:21:28

Yeah, absolutely Well. Thank you all for joining us at real talk with Tina and and, as usual, as we always say, and see you next time.