When the one hurting you is in your own home: An interview with author Victoria Ellen Part 1

WEBVTT

00:00:08.548 --> 00:00:10.230
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.

00:00:10.230 --> 00:00:14.736
I am Anne and we have a very courageous guest today.

00:00:14.736 --> 00:00:25.492
Victoria Ellen, I've read your book and I was so upset for you and also thrilled with you and your kids throughout this entire book.

00:00:25.492 --> 00:00:30.727
You are so brave and you did everything you could to help your family.

00:00:30.727 --> 00:00:35.061
Domestic abuse is often ignored, as we see in your book.

00:00:35.061 --> 00:00:43.543
Child abuse is also one that so many look the other way, even when all the evidence is right in front of them.

00:00:43.543 --> 00:00:47.493
The voiceless become more silent.

00:00:47.493 --> 00:00:49.783
I was a director of a battered woman's shelter.

00:00:49.783 --> 00:00:51.868
I was abused.

00:00:51.868 --> 00:00:59.872
My kids have been abused and I adopted them and you know there was a rape crisis center attached to where I worked.

00:00:59.872 --> 00:01:10.168
Also, and your story very much resonates with me, you will be heard today on this show, so thank you so much for trusting us with your story.

00:01:11.251 --> 00:01:11.753
Absolutely.

00:01:11.753 --> 00:01:14.766
Thank you so much, anne, for having me Really really happy to be here.

00:01:16.221 --> 00:01:25.608
It's hard to put such a horrific story in writing, I'm sure, for everyone to see, because you are basically and even doing this podcast.

00:01:25.608 --> 00:01:32.471
I mean it's a reliving and a reliving and it has to take an extra amount of bravery.

00:01:32.471 --> 00:01:35.341
I'm sure to do it each and every time.

00:01:35.341 --> 00:01:37.486
You know this should be a movie.

00:01:37.486 --> 00:01:49.066
I got to the end and I was like this is a movie and I found myself saying one more chapter because I wanted to find out what happened and this story was so unbelievable.

00:01:49.066 --> 00:01:53.606
I just sat there most of the time just shaking my head saying are you kidding me?

00:01:53.606 --> 00:02:00.146
So we're going to talk about different kinds of domestic abuse and look at child abuse and the system.

00:02:00.146 --> 00:02:04.073
So you know, let's start at the beginning.

00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:04.941
Yeah.

00:02:04.941 --> 00:02:06.525
So the title is Painting in the Rain.

00:02:06.525 --> 00:02:09.372
A True Story of Trickery and Trine.

00:02:09.921 --> 00:02:11.574
You were very young when you met Daryl.

00:02:11.574 --> 00:02:13.485
I was your future husband.

00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:14.764
Yes, I was.

00:02:15.539 --> 00:02:16.765
And we've all been there.

00:02:16.765 --> 00:02:29.962
You know, you look across the room at somebody and your heart kind of goes a little flutter and you're like, oh gosh, you know they're so cute and you like them and there's a connection.

00:02:29.962 --> 00:02:35.100
And people around you start saying you know, oh, you know, this guy isn't good for you.

00:02:35.100 --> 00:02:39.330
And your mom actually said that there was darkness all around him.

00:02:39.330 --> 00:02:40.960
I mean, what in the world?

00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:43.461
What were you thinking when she said that?

00:02:44.062 --> 00:02:44.924
It was wild.

00:02:44.924 --> 00:02:55.372
My mother has always had just this innate ability to it's like the sixth sense, you know, of her intuition.

00:02:55.372 --> 00:02:57.033
God rest her soul.

00:02:57.033 --> 00:02:59.096
Oh, your mom passed away.

00:02:59.096 --> 00:03:00.937
Okay, she's writing this book.

00:03:00.937 --> 00:03:14.903
She died of COVID, so I'm telling you, like you want to talk about trauma, I just got the gamut, you know, but it was so powerful, anne, and it was really.

00:03:14.903 --> 00:03:34.508
That's why I feel like it was such a spell that I was under because about him, but I didn't heed that advice just kind of shows you that deception is really strong and it just overtook me.

00:03:34.508 --> 00:03:51.752
And, you know, instead of, like, listening to her and leaning into people that love me, you know, I was really really taken by, like, like I say in the book, like this spell, and ended up not listening to her advice about the darkness that surrounded him.

00:03:52.193 --> 00:03:53.973
Well, I think most young people do that.

00:03:53.973 --> 00:03:57.955
You know our parents warn us and they're like what do they know?

00:03:57.955 --> 00:04:00.056
You know, I mean we all did that.

00:04:00.056 --> 00:04:12.498
And church can be deceiving because when you meet someone in a church and they're like singing God's praises and he's a good person because he just seems like such a good godly man.

00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:24.711
So some of the worst people on this- planet are hiding in the pews and they're at the altar Praying on people and it's the different pray.

00:04:24.711 --> 00:04:29.641
It's P-R-E-Y, not P?

00:04:29.641 --> 00:04:29.901
P-r-a-y.

00:04:29.901 --> 00:04:30.502
You know what I mean.

00:04:30.502 --> 00:04:41.271
And, um, I look at church kind of like an er right, all these sick people coming in and trying to get better, but you have to remember that like not everybody's on the same path as you, you know.

00:04:41.271 --> 00:04:46.574
So definitely the worst of the worst and you.

00:04:46.814 --> 00:04:53.449
That's where a lot of people who want to prey on people can go, because so many people are.

00:04:53.449 --> 00:04:54.230
They're broken.

00:04:54.230 --> 00:05:04.394
You know, I used to be one of the chaplain people at the jail for the women and I can tell you, I mean, they come in.

00:05:04.394 --> 00:05:14.432
They're so broken and they're so vulnerable and when you're in that kind of a state and you're in a church setting, somebody can really take you down very easily.

00:05:14.432 --> 00:05:15.475
It's scary.

00:05:16.300 --> 00:05:25.319
Well, and you consider the mental health disorders that we are up against with narcissistic personality disorder, the fact that you know we're dealing with sociopaths here.

00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:44.923
I mean, these people are very, very ill and they are extremely good at what they do, and so they know how to read people, and so if they think that you're weak, if they think that you're naive, if they think that you're a good person, they're going to take advantage of that and exploit your kindness and your compassion and empathy.

00:05:44.923 --> 00:05:46.384
They love to target you.

00:05:46.384 --> 00:05:48.226
You have this big red target on your back.

00:05:49.028 --> 00:05:51.410
And you were a young, innocent kid at the time.

00:05:51.410 --> 00:05:55.973
I mean you wanted badly to do the right thing so you weren't looking for bad.

00:05:55.973 --> 00:06:11.050
I mean you were afraid to disappoint and there were so many changes and tragedies in your young life, from abrupt moves city to country, christian school to public school and your mom almost died.

00:06:11.050 --> 00:06:12.915
I mean that was what happened.

00:06:14.100 --> 00:06:17.166
My mother was in a really horrible Jeep accident.

00:06:17.267 --> 00:06:28.495
She had just dropped me off, actually for school, and I was doing this carpool because it was so far to get to that private school and so we would carpool, all these ticks and we would go.

00:06:28.576 --> 00:06:54.639
You know, one of the parents would take us and she had just dropped me off and it was a super foggy morning and she ended up not seeing a car that was stopped for a school bus on the opposite side of the road and so the fog was just so bad and and she ended up flipping her Jeep multiple times and they found her hanging upside down by her seatbelt, dead, and she was out of body.

00:06:54.639 --> 00:07:02.850
After life experiences and it was, it was pretty wild and you know she saw the light, all the things.

00:07:02.850 --> 00:07:06.196
I think that's probably another podcast, another day.

00:07:06.196 --> 00:07:20.826
But when she did end up like coming back and breath, like came back into her body, there was a man there that had pulled her cover down from her seatbelt and was with her and they ended up care flighting her.

00:07:20.826 --> 00:07:30.067
So you know I was really young, saw her in ICU and just you know it was tragic, Very, very traumatic.

00:07:30.247 --> 00:07:31.391
And your dad almost died.

00:07:31.391 --> 00:07:38.709
So after your mom's, you know, a friend asked you how that affected you and you had not even thought about how it affected you.

00:07:38.709 --> 00:07:46.413
And in the book you say regarding all of this, that's enough to make anyone fear loneliness and abandonment.

00:07:46.413 --> 00:08:00.872
And I lost my dad when I was 11 years old, so I understand that fear of loneliness and abandonment and at a young age it can be so encompassing and can drain everything out of you.

00:08:00.872 --> 00:08:04.184
Do you think that it directed your life for a long time?

00:08:05.185 --> 00:08:06.749
I do, I really do.

00:08:06.749 --> 00:08:17.262
It's interesting because you know, at that moment you're so young you don't consider it.

00:08:17.262 --> 00:08:19.786
Then I ended up being really a young adult, meeting Daryl, and so I hadn't considered it then.

00:08:19.786 --> 00:08:27.064
But you know, as I look back on my life, you know the book was very cathartic and I do think that it did change me in a lot of ways.

00:08:27.064 --> 00:08:30.134
Oh sure, I mean really drastically.

00:08:30.134 --> 00:08:46.813
And then, you know, considering writing this book when my mom I actually found both my parents incapacitated, with COVID and I'm an only child, so they both ended up going, you know, into ICU in the hospital and my mother didn't make it.

00:08:46.813 --> 00:09:02.347
And so, you know, trying to like unpack all of this, like abandonment and being alone and being an only child, only grandchild, I mean, there's just so much there and I think that was one of the reasons and why I felt like God, like I can't stop now.

00:09:03.089 --> 00:09:12.109
I mean the whole reason why I started this was so that I could help other people not feel alone, and now I feel so much more alone.

00:09:12.109 --> 00:09:18.749
So I really want to make sure I try to bridge this gap with connection, and that vulnerability creates connection.

00:09:18.749 --> 00:09:21.188
I mean Brene Brown talks about that in her books.

00:09:21.188 --> 00:09:25.741
I truly believe that and I mean, look at you and I, we don't even know each other.

00:09:25.741 --> 00:09:26.283
We're not.

00:09:26.283 --> 00:09:41.504
We're getting to know each other today, but it's amazing how this trauma and just the alone, abandonment, almost feeling, does create that, that bridge with people who don't have, you know, don't have the connection previously.

00:09:41.683 --> 00:09:43.265
Right, and we weren't meant to be alone.

00:09:43.265 --> 00:09:46.009
So you know we were meant for connection.

00:09:46.009 --> 00:09:50.193
Yeah, it's hard when our parents go.

00:09:50.193 --> 00:09:51.596
I mean it really is.

00:09:51.596 --> 00:09:58.153
I mean, and you had such a close relationship with both of your parents, so you know I'm so sorry for your mom.

00:09:58.153 --> 00:10:09.095
As I continue to read your book, I noticed that you had a natural reaction to all of this feeling that in your life was out of control.

00:10:09.095 --> 00:10:12.019
And then you met Daryl in this church.

00:10:12.019 --> 00:10:16.071
So how would you have described him before doubt entered in?

00:10:18.100 --> 00:10:28.227
Oh, very charismatic, yeah, larger than life, personality, easy to like.

00:10:28.227 --> 00:10:35.331
You know, there's just some people my husband, he's easy to love, you know, it's just like, he's just a lovable guy.

00:10:35.331 --> 00:10:38.346
Daryl was easy to like.

00:10:38.346 --> 00:10:59.725
It was like, oh, he's just got this big personality and he was funny and he was very young and buff and attractive and it was like, wow, and I'm super sheltered, you know, raised in the living room there, and he was like wow, like, oh, this is a dream, right Out of this world.

00:10:59.725 --> 00:11:03.548
So, yeah, and you know, everybody seemed to like him.

00:11:03.548 --> 00:11:05.682
I mean when they would meet him.

00:11:05.682 --> 00:11:13.488
I mean, obviously, when you try to, when you look at my family and my friends and then connecting him with me, they didn't like that.

00:11:13.488 --> 00:11:18.412
But I mean when you just pull all those layers off and and you look at him alone.

00:11:18.412 --> 00:11:25.697
Yeah, it was just, you know, attractive, funny and a great big personality.

00:11:26.500 --> 00:11:27.563
Yeah, he could work a room.

00:11:27.563 --> 00:11:29.048
There's no doubt about that.

00:11:30.642 --> 00:11:35.150
Yes, and he did in his 20s and his 30s and even into his 40s.

00:11:35.150 --> 00:11:37.301
I mean he was still working the room.

00:11:37.301 --> 00:11:40.390
I mean under all of the guises, right Under all.

00:11:40.440 --> 00:11:45.004
Right, I was so surprised he would even enter in, you know, to the courtroom.

00:11:45.004 --> 00:11:51.533
That we'll talk about way later, but I mean just smiling and just you know, hey, how's it going.

00:11:51.533 --> 00:11:54.936
I was just like, oh my gosh, who is this guy?

00:11:55.960 --> 00:11:56.640
It's wild.

00:11:56.640 --> 00:12:02.890
You know most people like your filter would kick in and you'd be like I'm not going to act like that, I've got to.

00:12:02.890 --> 00:12:06.863
You know we're here for a hearing and not him I mean he never.

00:12:06.962 --> 00:12:10.852
he never wore the shame or the blame or anything, never, ever.

00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:23.481
I don't think he even has the capacity to be really frank with you, and the reason I think that is because, like most of us are not the majority of population, we're not sociopaths, right?

00:12:23.481 --> 00:12:24.102
We?

00:12:24.102 --> 00:12:35.615
Have like empathy and compassion and we know how to read a room and you have social awareness and you know you just tread softly and he really didn't have that ability.

00:12:41.744 --> 00:12:44.678
If he did, he fought it, you know, tooth and nail, because he wasn't going to show it by any means.

00:12:44.678 --> 00:12:46.427
And another part of his personality is that he was so convincing.

00:12:46.427 --> 00:12:48.936
I mean, he used God often too, and I thought that that was horrible.

00:12:48.936 --> 00:12:53.023
He said to you that God told him that you were supposed to be his wife.

00:12:53.023 --> 00:12:57.511
So here is what seemed like this wonderful young man who was.

00:12:57.511 --> 00:13:09.384
You know, he seemed like it, at the same time putting very subtle clues out there to who he really was, the same time putting very subtle clues out there to who he really was.

00:13:09.384 --> 00:13:10.187
So you know, he and his family.

00:13:10.206 --> 00:13:10.648
They were a little off.

00:13:10.648 --> 00:13:12.393
Absolutely, they absolutely were.

00:13:12.393 --> 00:13:14.520
And my mom was calling these shots.

00:13:14.520 --> 00:13:15.243
It was wild.

00:13:15.243 --> 00:13:20.562
She was like, oh, this is happening, this is happening and I'm like no, I'm like in La La Land, I don't see any of it.

00:13:21.865 --> 00:13:56.282
When you think about your own mental health and you are in your own emotional well-being, it's funny I say this in the book and I often repeat it that I can tell where I was at mentally and emotionally in my well-being by the people that I was dating and so I would attract, you could attract people you know it was like a magnet that were also like not well, you know, masking it or covering it up and using God, no less, which I mean.

00:13:56.282 --> 00:14:02.048
I just feel like there's a special place for people that want to use God to prey on people.

00:14:02.048 --> 00:14:08.557
I can't believe that he was doing this for so long under the radar.

00:14:08.557 --> 00:14:14.510
And, to your point, utilizing God, I mean God will not be mocked.

00:14:14.510 --> 00:14:15.633
That's all I can say.

00:14:15.633 --> 00:14:17.582
So you know what I mean.

00:14:17.582 --> 00:14:21.792
His vengeance, he will have his vengeance.

00:14:21.892 --> 00:14:31.679
But for me personally, I was so naive and I was so emotionally just stunted that if and when someone like him says to me oh my God, you're supposed to be my wife.

00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:34.466
God told me, but you're supposed to be my wife.

00:14:34.466 --> 00:14:40.484
I mean, wow, like I was just like oh, this is wonderful, because I didn't.

00:14:40.484 --> 00:14:44.601
I I didn't know if anybody would ever love me because I had so many issues.

00:14:44.601 --> 00:14:45.543
You know what I mean.

00:14:45.543 --> 00:14:47.586
So I'm not good enough for anything.

00:14:47.586 --> 00:14:47.966
And this.

00:14:51.416 --> 00:14:54.629
Well, you thought that he would be hiding something.

00:14:54.629 --> 00:15:05.820
I mean, you know, when you're getting to know people, you're talking about your siblings, your parents, you're you know, you're telling all the things about your life, and he wasn't telling you those things.

00:15:05.820 --> 00:15:12.783
I mean, as you were asking him questions and he just kept denying and deflecting about different things that you would ask him about.

00:15:12.783 --> 00:15:15.917
So that said a lot about his personality too.

00:15:17.078 --> 00:15:26.038
Absolutely, and that's something that I would give as just kind of a just a little nugget for people if they have a takeaway from today's show.

00:15:26.038 --> 00:15:39.197
You know, if you feel like there are red flags or people are hiding things, I mean there is no reason to hide birthdates, there's no reason to hide anniversaries, there's no reason to hide where you work.

00:15:39.197 --> 00:15:44.875
I mean these are normal things that, unless you're hiding something, it's normal conversation.

00:15:44.875 --> 00:15:45.638
Oh, what's your birthday?

00:15:45.638 --> 00:15:46.500
Oh, mine's June.

00:15:46.500 --> 00:15:47.835
Oh, my gosh, that's awesome.

00:15:47.835 --> 00:15:48.517
Mine's a June too.

00:15:48.517 --> 00:15:49.058
What day?

00:15:49.058 --> 00:15:51.032
Like you know, where'd you graduate?

00:15:51.032 --> 00:15:57.421
These types of things, those are normal questions and if people are hiding things, then there's a reason why they're hiding it.

00:15:58.403 --> 00:15:59.464
Yeah, absolutely.

00:15:59.464 --> 00:16:11.772
I mean we'll get into it, but he was a master at this.

00:16:11.772 --> 00:16:12.153
A master, you know.

00:16:12.153 --> 00:16:18.816
I always say that if there's an abuser in the room and there's somebody that's vulnerable, there could be a thousand people in there they will find that person.

00:16:18.816 --> 00:16:26.658
And you said that the lion doesn't go after the strongest gazelle, he goes after the one with the broken leg.

00:16:26.658 --> 00:16:28.903
That was me, you said.

00:16:28.903 --> 00:16:36.750
And you said you didn't realize that evil will seek you out and will set up a trap to destroy your life.

00:16:36.750 --> 00:16:39.975
I mean, what was happening?

00:16:42.019 --> 00:16:42.760
It's wild.

00:16:42.760 --> 00:16:44.624
I mean, I never thought that I was.

00:16:44.624 --> 00:16:48.075
I never thought much of myself, okay.

00:16:48.075 --> 00:16:49.337
So there's that.

00:16:49.337 --> 00:17:03.452
Yeah, we just all can save space for that, and we just all can save space for that.

00:17:03.472 --> 00:17:06.605
I mean, I know a lot of people feel that way, but I feel like you have to believe in good and evil or my story just doesn't work.

00:17:06.625 --> 00:17:07.710
Oh my gosh, it's all through your book, yeah, and so.

00:17:09.371 --> 00:17:09.852
And it's very real.

00:17:09.852 --> 00:17:12.455
I think it is, I truly believe that it is.

00:17:12.455 --> 00:17:23.310
But I believe that you know the evil was waiting and there was a plan, just like I feel like you know God has a plan for all of our lives when we're born.

00:17:23.310 --> 00:17:31.377
I feel like there's a plan and a purpose for all of us and you can choose good or you can choose evil, but I feel like evil was very present.

00:17:31.699 --> 00:17:43.873
And now that I'm a stronger person, I know that my calling is really great and that I'm supposed to really be kind of networking and using my voice in a really, really big way.

00:17:43.873 --> 00:17:57.954
And so now it makes sense to realize like, oh, back then there was a plan to silence me, there was a plan to try to stop me and basically to abort my mission, silence me, there was a plan to try to stop me and basically to abort my mission.

00:17:57.954 --> 00:17:58.556
And that's really how I feel.

00:17:58.556 --> 00:18:17.845
Nobody ever changed my mind, just simply because I've been through 20 plus years of hell on earth with this man and now, like being able to see from the other side what was going on, really, you can't really deny that there was something at play here to destroy me.

00:18:20.112 --> 00:18:31.559
One of my favorite ways that he was described in the book was a narcissistic word salad and I was just like, oh my gosh, that is perfect.

00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:36.512
I actually wrote it down that is perfect.

00:18:36.532 --> 00:18:37.875
I actually wrote it down.

00:18:37.875 --> 00:18:39.036
You can't make sense of it.

00:18:39.036 --> 00:18:41.538
You're like what did they just say?

00:18:41.538 --> 00:18:42.138
You know?

00:18:43.000 --> 00:19:08.990
Yeah, the more you talked about him in the book, I put one word down on a piece of paper grooming.

00:19:08.990 --> 00:19:09.531
He was a master groomer.

00:19:09.531 --> 00:19:10.233
I went to Rainn's website, R-A-I-N-N.

00:19:10.233 --> 00:19:13.462
Grooming is a tool that abusers use to gain access to a potential victim, coerce them to agree to the abuse and reduce the risk of being caught.

00:19:13.462 --> 00:19:13.844
I've been groomed.

00:19:13.844 --> 00:19:18.880
I have been groomed by someone and you don't see it coming, and it's an absolute horrible thing to have happen to you.

00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:30.506
They're making you think that you are special, but they're gradually luring you into this world of horror 100%.

00:19:31.472 --> 00:19:33.599
That definition nailed it, anne.

00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:39.853
I mean I can't echo my sentiments more about how accurate that really is.

00:19:39.853 --> 00:19:40.976
And I was being groomed.

00:19:40.976 --> 00:19:46.151
As a matter of fact, all of his victims were being groomed.

00:19:46.451 --> 00:19:50.856
Absolutely, oh yeah, in a really scary way.

00:19:50.856 --> 00:20:05.025
So here you are with this man and it's like you're in a tornado, and then, all of a sudden, your relationship takes a much deeper turn because you guys are now permanently connected.

00:20:05.025 --> 00:20:07.471
So what happens?

00:20:08.673 --> 00:20:09.053
Yeah.

00:20:09.053 --> 00:20:24.154
So I ended up getting pregnant with my son and in my mind I needed to make it right and I wasn't convinced that I should marry him.

00:20:24.154 --> 00:20:29.815
So over the course of those three trimesters, while I was pregnant, it was like I was with Daryl.

00:20:29.815 --> 00:20:34.593
I'd broken up with Daryl second trimester and then I was back with Daryl in the third trimester.

00:20:34.593 --> 00:20:38.459
So I'm starting to be able to see things and see clearly.

00:20:38.459 --> 00:20:51.875
But then he started all of the love bombing, sending me flowers and sending me gifts and how much he loved me and he wanted to be an amazing father and a wonderful husband.

00:20:51.875 --> 00:21:10.462
And all of the empty promises and the love bombing just overwhelmed me and I ended up getting married just a few short days before I was due moving to a new city, a new home, being married and a new mom all within a nice whirlwind of about 10 days.

00:21:11.250 --> 00:21:13.838
Oh my gosh, I didn't realize it was 10 days.

00:21:13.838 --> 00:21:16.387
Oh my gosh, that's so much.

00:21:16.387 --> 00:21:34.057
I mean, you just described the cycle of violence and we used to talk I used to do trainings at the Battered Woman's Shelter for volunteers and we would put up the cycle of violence and that's exactly what would happen.

00:21:34.057 --> 00:21:42.069
I mean, they would be so wonderful, they would lure you in, and then all these things would start happening and maybe some abuse would happen.

00:21:42.069 --> 00:21:54.353
That was like wait what is, wait a second, and then they would come with all these oh I love you's and the roses and everything, and the honeymoon phase would last for a period of time and then it would all go again.

00:21:55.414 --> 00:21:55.835
That's it.

00:21:55.835 --> 00:22:09.474
And you know it's funny because in the moment it feels chivalrous, like, oh, wow, like you want me to quit my job because you want to take care of me so I don't have to work.

00:22:09.474 --> 00:22:09.996
Oh, that's so kind of you.

00:22:09.996 --> 00:22:21.364
No, it's so he can control you, so he can do everything you do control your money, control where you spend money, control when you leave the house, control every single moment of your life.

00:22:21.890 --> 00:22:26.301
Yeah, the control and manipulation were two words that you used often in the book.

00:22:26.301 --> 00:22:37.089
And here is this man that is so amazing to the world, but you are seeing him as someone who is quite scary old.

00:22:37.089 --> 00:22:39.257
But you are seeing him as someone who is quite scary so they can act so innocent, like what?

00:22:39.257 --> 00:22:41.663
What did I do and make you feel like you're crazy?

00:22:42.430 --> 00:22:43.653
Well, that's the gaslighting.

00:22:43.653 --> 00:22:52.844
So anytime you start questioning, then they completely flip the script and use what you just said the manipulation.

00:22:52.844 --> 00:22:54.433
What is wrong with you?

00:22:54.433 --> 00:22:56.240
Why are you acting like this?

00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:11.715
After all, I've done for you, I worked so you can stay at home with our baby, like you know, and it's gosh unbelievable really it really is, and his mom and dad were thrilled that you guys were getting married.

00:23:11.849 --> 00:23:13.769
I mean they belong together.

00:23:13.769 --> 00:23:15.976
I mean that family.

00:23:15.976 --> 00:23:18.221
They were really something else.

00:23:18.221 --> 00:23:25.881
But one of the things that I saw was that you were hoping constantly well, maybe when the baby is born this will happen.

00:23:25.881 --> 00:23:32.219
You know he'll finally be there for me and be there for us, and you know that type of thing.

00:23:32.219 --> 00:23:34.458
But it just kept getting worse and worse.

00:23:34.458 --> 00:23:35.895
And you gave an example.

00:23:35.895 --> 00:23:37.415
I could not believe this.

00:23:37.415 --> 00:23:43.920
It was your birthday, you had just had a C-section and what?

00:23:44.951 --> 00:23:56.598
He schedules a birthday trip I'm using air quotes for those of you who are listening For me and schedules a birthday weekend away.

00:23:56.598 --> 00:24:02.315
Now, mind you, my son was born the fourth day of January and my birthday is in February.

00:24:02.315 --> 00:24:10.315
Okay, I had a C-section after laboring for 18 hours, so I mean, it was just like horrendous.

00:24:10.315 --> 00:24:19.746
And he schedules a birthday trip at a ski lodge, away from my newborn and at a ski lodge.

00:24:19.746 --> 00:24:23.439
I mean, how much more selfish can you be, ann?

00:24:24.982 --> 00:24:28.271
I just read that and I just could not believe that he did that.

00:24:28.271 --> 00:24:36.115
I mean, I had to have a hysterectomy years ago and so it was kind of like a C-section, I would say back then, that's how they used to do it.

00:24:36.115 --> 00:24:40.422
And oh my gosh, there is no way.

00:24:40.422 --> 00:24:41.964
There's just no way.

00:24:41.964 --> 00:24:43.532
I can't believe that he did.

00:24:43.532 --> 00:24:45.478
He never thought of you guys.

00:24:45.478 --> 00:24:47.142
He never thought of anybody but himself.

00:24:47.142 --> 00:24:59.145
So, yeah, yeah, Well, he controlled every move of you guys and you had to stay at your parents' house where you basically were monitored 24-7.

00:24:59.145 --> 00:25:04.281
He was in control of where you went and he wouldn't let you go anywhere without him.

00:25:04.281 --> 00:25:07.680
Were you allowed to have a relationship with your family?

00:25:08.809 --> 00:25:13.477
Yeah, so I just want to make sure I clarify that I would have to stay at his parents' house.

00:25:13.718 --> 00:25:15.627
Yes, I thought I said that I'm sorry have to stay at his parents' house.

00:25:15.627 --> 00:25:18.144
Yes, I thought I said that I'm sorry that you stayed at his parents' house.

00:25:18.483 --> 00:25:20.046
His parents' house, and he did.

00:25:20.046 --> 00:25:21.395
He monitored my every move.

00:25:21.395 --> 00:25:23.315
I wasn't allowed to open the curtains.

00:25:23.315 --> 00:25:27.438
The blinds, I mean, had to be shut at all times.

00:25:27.438 --> 00:25:30.278
I wasn't allowed to leave the house without permission.

00:25:30.278 --> 00:25:32.251
Where do you need to go anyway?

00:25:32.251 --> 00:25:38.461
I mean, you don't have a job and you're supposed to be taking care of our newborn, so where do you need to go?

00:25:39.442 --> 00:25:39.844
You know if.

00:25:39.864 --> 00:25:46.349
I wanted to go to the grocery, it was like absolutely not.

00:25:46.349 --> 00:25:49.156
And that just continued to ratchet up over time.

00:25:49.156 --> 00:25:54.459
And then it's just, you know, the taking of my keys, hiding my not letting me go.

00:25:54.459 --> 00:26:00.374
It's just, I mean, so much control, oh my God, it was unbelievable.

00:26:00.374 --> 00:26:00.855
You're right.

00:26:00.855 --> 00:26:04.083
Yeah, every move, every single move, was controlled.

00:26:04.509 --> 00:26:12.538
You know, when a woman and I think he was starting to think, you know, suspect that you were going to leave and that was why he was doing that.

00:26:12.538 --> 00:26:24.192
And when somebody gets to the point where they're thinking that the men or you know, whoever is abusing the other person, is starting to up their game too.

00:26:24.192 --> 00:26:37.118
So I mean the moving of the keys and just starting to ask you you know, he always wanted to know where you were going and then he would be like, oh no, I'll go to the store instead of you.

00:26:37.118 --> 00:26:42.373
Or he would go away, say he was going away for two hours and come back in 15 minutes.

00:26:42.373 --> 00:26:45.759
I mean that always had to keep you on your toes.

00:26:46.220 --> 00:26:46.681
It does.

00:26:46.681 --> 00:27:07.482
It's like your nervous system is constantly on high alert because for one second you're like, oh my God, thank God he's leaving, I've got two hours of peace and I can just sit here and like, just try to breathe and like get myself together, you know, and try to make sense of like this crazy life that I'm living.

00:27:07.482 --> 00:27:14.520
And then him coming back in 15 minutes after he said he'd be gone two hours, it was like oh.

00:27:14.520 --> 00:27:19.028
Back in 15 minutes after he said he'd be gone two hours, it was like oh.

00:27:19.028 --> 00:27:22.771
So just to let you know, you're not in control of your life.

00:27:22.771 --> 00:27:24.315
You don't get to play in the next two hours.

00:27:24.315 --> 00:27:25.056
I say when you can rest.

00:27:25.056 --> 00:27:26.318
I say if you can rest, I say how long you'll rest.

00:27:26.318 --> 00:27:29.770
So yeah, you're constantly in a state of fight or flight.

00:27:30.352 --> 00:27:39.748
You know let's talk about this credit cards and the money and where this story goes with his need to impress.

00:27:42.151 --> 00:27:53.164
So Daryl was very consumed with anything that was materialistic, so he wanted and also perception.

00:27:53.164 --> 00:28:14.421
Let me just say that Right right could portray that he was successful and he drove an expensive car and we lived in a nice home and we had expensive clothing or whatever it was then it was.

00:28:14.421 --> 00:28:41.430
People would perceive me as successful and if people perceive you a certain way, then he could basically create this formula where if I look successful and I play the part of a successful person, then I'll attract more money and more relationships of people who have money and then I'll be at my disposal, have more access to funds so that I can utilize that to fund my lifestyle.

00:28:41.430 --> 00:28:49.336
And so he would drive our friends' cars, because he was really close with these people and he was young and, like I said, you know he just had this.

00:28:49.336 --> 00:28:51.982
You know forked tongue.

00:28:51.982 --> 00:28:53.132
You know he just could.

00:28:53.472 --> 00:28:57.702
He was so manipulative and he could just sway people into doing whatever he wanted.

00:28:57.702 --> 00:29:07.201
So he's driving Dodge Vipers and he's driving Hummers and he's driving these expensive like racing BMWs and all these cars that just cost an exorbitant amount of money.

00:29:07.201 --> 00:29:22.515
Meanwhile we can't even afford to buy our groceries, and so he would take my credit cards and buy groceries and pay the electric bill, and pay the water bill and buy clothing and whatever he wanted, and put it all on the credit cards.

00:29:22.515 --> 00:29:34.696
Because I actually had credit, because my mom taught me how to manage money when I was growing up and I had a savings account and a checkbook, and so he just wanted his name on everything.

00:29:35.138 --> 00:29:36.423
And of course we're married.

00:29:36.423 --> 00:29:40.977
I have to be submitted to my husband, and aren't you going to be a good wife?

00:29:40.977 --> 00:29:43.290
And don't you know what God's Word says about?

00:29:43.290 --> 00:29:45.215
A wife should submit to her husband.

00:29:45.215 --> 00:29:53.599
And so then he used the word to just beat me over the head and it was like well, this is what the Bible says, and if you're not a good Christian, you're not going to obey the Bible.

00:29:53.789 --> 00:30:06.103
And it's like oh, you know, in the battered women's shelter that was the word and the Christian women would come in and they felt so awful.

00:30:06.103 --> 00:30:19.621
They really believed that they were going against God and it was beat into them not just by the husband but also by the church, because they needed to listen to him and do what the husband said.

00:30:20.791 --> 00:30:27.085
That's exactly right, and you got to think about how we program our minds right.

00:30:27.085 --> 00:30:29.972
Repetition over and over, and, over and, over and over again.

00:30:29.972 --> 00:30:45.153
You're being told that you are going against God, not going against man, because this person is supposed to be like, operating like with the, you know, with God as his head.

00:30:45.153 --> 00:30:50.315
So if he's submitted to God and you're submitted to him, then, oh my gosh, you don't want to go against God.

00:30:50.315 --> 00:30:55.374
And it's such a manipulation of what the Bible even is.

00:30:55.374 --> 00:31:03.582
So if you don't know anything about the Bible, then you would be like who would want to have anything to do with God anyway, because this is like a horrible life.

00:31:03.990 --> 00:31:07.711
But the problem is none of it was actually used correctly.

00:31:07.711 --> 00:31:28.751
It was all manipulation and control for selfish gains so that they can get what they want, which is more control and being able to just have people as pawns, and so it was a sick vicious cycle that I was stuck in and then finally being able to come out of that and you start to slowly come out of that fog.

00:31:28.751 --> 00:31:34.990
You are under the spell and you can't even think clearly because you have been brainwashed.

00:31:34.990 --> 00:31:35.752
It's a cult.

00:31:36.474 --> 00:31:37.416
Yeah, it really is.

00:31:37.416 --> 00:31:39.583
And plus, he was beating you down all the time.

00:31:39.583 --> 00:31:43.797
So I mean your mental and emotional state was so low.

00:31:43.797 --> 00:31:50.296
He wouldn't even let you leave the house without sweats, and I mean with sweats on or something like that.

00:31:50.296 --> 00:31:56.939
I mean you had to look perfect at all times, and if you didn't, he would put you down, and then he wouldn't even let you cry.

00:31:56.939 --> 00:32:06.924
So you had this thing where, I mean, he said that you were actually pitiful and he put you down if you had emotion.

00:32:07.767 --> 00:32:09.189
Correct, and that's the other thing.

00:32:09.189 --> 00:32:14.881
They want to completely desensitize you and then berate you when you are down.

00:32:14.881 --> 00:32:16.064
And you're exactly right.

00:32:16.064 --> 00:32:22.796
When you're constantly being told you know that you're not good enough and you're not skinny enough and you're not pretty enough.

00:32:22.796 --> 00:32:32.817
And you know, if you don't have on makeup, then you're not pretty, and if your hair's up you don't really look great because you don't really have a very strong jawline to be able to wear your hair up.

00:32:32.817 --> 00:32:38.760
You should always wear your hair down and just like those little digs constantly over and over.

00:32:38.760 --> 00:32:56.915
And then you know, if you read the book, you'll understand he was really big into weightlifting and so it was all about the physique and so it wasn't just the money, it was like the strong presence of him being like I'm strong, I'm powerful, I've got this buff body.

00:32:56.915 --> 00:33:00.855
Look how put together I am and everybody wants me.

00:33:00.855 --> 00:33:04.477
You know it's just constant and you can't even come up for air.

00:33:04.477 --> 00:33:07.019
You're literally drowning all the time.

00:33:08.191 --> 00:33:10.519
And he also you kind of mentioned this a little bit ago.

00:33:10.519 --> 00:33:18.881
I mean, he kept you literally in the dark, literally, and you even got in trouble for like lifting up the blinds.

00:33:18.881 --> 00:33:20.876
You know, I don't know what that was.

00:33:20.876 --> 00:33:22.978
Even at his parents' house they were that way.

00:33:26.094 --> 00:33:35.266
What are you doing in your house that you can't open the blinds, that you can't have the drapes open on the windows or that you can't have the windows open?

00:33:35.769 --> 00:33:37.419
Right, right right.

00:33:37.529 --> 00:33:38.555
What are you doing in there?

00:33:38.555 --> 00:33:40.634
I mean, it's the wildest thing.

00:33:40.634 --> 00:33:41.237
It's so funny.

00:33:41.237 --> 00:33:42.220
We just built a house.

00:33:42.220 --> 00:33:43.655
It's a year ago this month.

00:33:43.655 --> 00:33:46.557
I don't have any drapes on.

00:33:46.557 --> 00:33:48.313
I mean, this is my office.

00:33:48.313 --> 00:33:49.596
There aren't drapes.

00:33:49.596 --> 00:33:52.021
Even in here, in our living room, there are no drapes.

00:33:52.021 --> 00:33:52.932
There are no blinds.

00:33:52.932 --> 00:33:54.855
Front door big big door.

00:33:54.855 --> 00:33:58.243
I'm like let the light in no more darkness.

00:34:00.150 --> 00:34:04.752
Exactly, and along with that, we touched on this, too, a little bit.

00:34:04.752 --> 00:34:09.835
But the crazy making that he put into you with this narcissism.

00:34:09.835 --> 00:34:11.177
This really hit me.

00:34:11.177 --> 00:34:28.130
When, for anybody who's been abused, you say how scary it is to realize that you are living with someone you don't even know and how they were able to lie to everyone and have this secret life which you still didn't know at this time.

00:34:28.992 --> 00:34:44.717
But the gaslighting and living with a stranger who you were married to, that you don't even know at all and you say Daryl would be gaslighting you, and then you talk about how Daryl would be physically restraining you.

00:34:44.717 --> 00:34:53.932
He physically restrained you and I found it interesting that he turned it around on you and he's like I'm trying to protect you from hurting yourself.

00:34:53.932 --> 00:35:08.050
That is terrifying how someone can mess with your mind so much and be like wait, I'm helping you, but I'll tell you I loved how you said you're not protecting me, you're controlling me.

00:35:08.050 --> 00:35:16.923
I was like, yeah, you go, you know, but he comes back with this is I mean?

00:35:16.923 --> 00:35:17.851
This was just crazy.

00:35:17.851 --> 00:35:20.353
There is this thing that he said.

00:35:20.353 --> 00:35:24.059
He turned it back on you and said that he was worried about your mental state.

00:35:24.420 --> 00:35:31.878
Absolutely, and this is just another play in the playbook of the narcissist.

00:35:31.878 --> 00:35:34.362
They try to make you think you're crazy.

00:35:34.362 --> 00:35:40.802
They switch everything up on you constantly and then they do question your mental health.

00:35:40.802 --> 00:35:51.079
Maybe you should, you know, really examine your heart and your mind, because a good Christian woman would never act like this.

00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:52.978
She would never question.

00:35:52.978 --> 00:35:56.119
And you know, I was already programmed for the good girl, right.

00:35:56.119 --> 00:36:02.043
I was already like all I ever wanted to do was to honor God with my life.

00:36:02.043 --> 00:36:03.777
I just wanted to be a good person.

00:36:03.777 --> 00:36:04.996
I just wanted to be a good person.

00:36:04.996 --> 00:36:06.585
I just wanted to be a good girl.

00:36:06.585 --> 00:36:15.130
So when you've already got that in your mind, as a good girl submits, a good girl does what she's told.

00:36:15.130 --> 00:36:17.978
A good girl is a people pleaser.

00:36:17.978 --> 00:36:23.494
A good girl doesn't go against her husband, she honors her husband and she submits.

00:36:23.494 --> 00:36:29.599
I mean you've already got all this programming and so you do feel like you're going crazy.

00:36:29.929 --> 00:36:30.994
And you wore the shame.

00:36:30.994 --> 00:36:36.820
I mean, you really felt like you were standing before God with all this shame.

00:36:37.981 --> 00:36:39.043
You know it's interesting.

00:36:39.043 --> 00:36:41.436
Shame beat the hell out of me.

00:36:41.436 --> 00:36:42.519
I say that all the time.

00:36:42.519 --> 00:36:43.351
It really did.

00:36:43.351 --> 00:36:56.304
And if you don't know what shame is, it's basically like this feeling where you really can't even lift your head.

00:36:56.304 --> 00:37:04.873
You walk where you feel like this heaviness is on you.

00:37:04.873 --> 00:37:19.840
It's like this heavy cape and you're carrying this burden and your head is just constantly down because you don't feel like you're good enough and you don't feel like you're smart enough and you don't feel like you qualify for anything because of all these things that you haven't done right, and that's your track record, and your track record sucks.

00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:21.652
And so what are you going to do now?

00:37:21.652 --> 00:37:30.476
You've left your entire family to run off with this man who ends up being a loser and an abuser, and so now what are you going to do?

00:37:30.476 --> 00:37:34.911
You can't go back, so shame is just eating me alive.

00:37:35.592 --> 00:37:38.998
Right Gosh, I felt so bad for you.

00:37:38.998 --> 00:37:44.112
I just wanted to come into those pages and be like you're fine.

00:37:44.112 --> 00:37:46.659
I mean, I just wanted to like give you a hug.

00:37:46.659 --> 00:37:51.034
I felt so awful for all the shame and he felt none, by the way.

00:37:51.034 --> 00:37:52.737
So there was that.

00:37:52.737 --> 00:37:56.463
So I want to touch a little bit more.

00:37:56.463 --> 00:37:58.833
I mean, this is harder.

00:37:58.833 --> 00:38:09.530
The abuse continued and the hardest thing in our lives as a parent is to realize that now your child is being hurt.

00:38:09.530 --> 00:38:14.764
You started suspecting that your son at this time was being hurt.

00:38:14.764 --> 00:38:19.891
You started seeing behaviors with your child that made you really believe this.

00:38:21.492 --> 00:38:22.112
Yes, I did.

00:38:23.034 --> 00:38:41.704
And you know, all through being married to Daryl, like I said, the Bible was the be-all and end-all, and so in his mind, that scripture that says spare the rod, spoil the child, was constant.

00:38:42.123 --> 00:39:06.465
And so, you know, ryland was so young and at that time I didn't know what was going on with Ryland, but Ryland was constantly crying, constantly screaming, inconsolable at all times and could not regulate ever, and so he, just he was a mess all the time and I didn't know what I didn't know.

00:39:06.465 --> 00:39:19.036
Now, looking back, I know that he was being abused sexually and physically, emotionally, mentally, everything he endured, but we didn't know what was wrong with him and he was constantly crying.

00:39:19.036 --> 00:39:22.641
And so Daryl's response to that is well, you know, you've got to whip him.

00:39:22.641 --> 00:39:30.516
And so he would leave bruises on him because he had whipped him so hard.

00:39:30.516 --> 00:39:33.141
And I mean we're talking about a one-year-old, he was still in diapers.

00:39:33.141 --> 00:39:39.315
I mean there's no reason why he would have needed to be, you know, no, no, no.

00:39:39.315 --> 00:39:46.960
But you can't try to use logic or reason with the narcissist because you're going to lose that game every single day.

00:39:48.722 --> 00:40:05.306
And then the constant, with me getting in the middle of him and Ryland and trying to stop that and, of course, creating a horrible son and my son's growing up in this horrible, violent life and me just trying at that point to just be like, hey, don't you have somewhere to go?

00:40:05.306 --> 00:40:05.682
Like, yeah, go, that's fine, we're here.

00:40:05.682 --> 00:40:07.007
And then just really just trying at that point to just be like, hey, don't you have somewhere to go?

00:40:07.007 --> 00:40:07.563
Like, yeah, go, that's fine, we're here.

00:40:07.563 --> 00:40:15.760
And then just really just trying to make him continue to be gone because I didn't want him around, because I didn't want him to abuse us while he was there.

00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:29.112
So, yeah, it was horrific, but the behavior that he was displaying ultimately started leading me to believe that he was also being sexually abused.

00:40:30.012 --> 00:40:34.059
His mom made a reference that gave me the chills.

00:40:34.059 --> 00:40:42.516
She said that you could hide the abuse, that things could be happening and nobody see it.

00:40:44.298 --> 00:41:01.298
Yep'll tell you, looking back on all of that writing this book, it was one of the farthest chapters I had to get through and, to be really honest with you, oh I I bet um, and janice heisel is my co-author.

00:41:01.378 --> 00:41:03.525
I actually hired her initially.

00:41:03.525 --> 00:41:06.465
It was like as a ghost writer, um, but we ended up.

00:41:06.465 --> 00:41:09.603
Can you imagine telling your life story to someone over the course of a year and a half?

00:41:09.603 --> 00:41:40.835
I mean, you become really close and we became very good friends and I tasked her with some things like this stuff, because I couldn't go through all of the files again and again and again and again to pull up, like all the documentation for Asian children's services, a lot of those things, and even this question about his mother, even you know, basically forewarning me, and it was like she was saying like, oh, this could happen, so you have to be so careful.

00:41:40.835 --> 00:41:43.900
That's why we don't let anybody else watch our kids.

00:41:43.900 --> 00:41:51.998
No, the reason why you don't let other people watch your kids is because you're abusing them, and then if other people were to see them, then they would know that they were being abused.

00:41:51.998 --> 00:41:59.146
So very sick, very sick, and I mean total, total perpetrator.

00:41:59.266 --> 00:41:59.728
So what do?

00:41:59.748 --> 00:41:59.889
you do?

00:41:59.889 --> 00:42:03.518
Do you believe that she had knowledge of everything that was happening?

00:42:04.219 --> 00:42:04.561
I do.

00:42:04.561 --> 00:42:05.523
That's my belief.

00:42:05.523 --> 00:42:08.498
There's no way to prove that Right.

00:42:08.498 --> 00:42:10.135
I do believe she did.

00:42:10.469 --> 00:42:15.597
It almost felt in those statements that she said that she was a part of it.

00:42:16.739 --> 00:42:17.159
Oh, I believe.

00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:21.565
Oh, she was, she was, she wasn't, yeah, she wasn't yeah.

00:42:21.565 --> 00:42:50.594
And you know what's interesting, I was scared to death because I had an attorney that I hired to go through the book, because when you are involved with this many court cases and for this extended period of time, it's hard, because I mean, you know this Anne having the battered women's shelter, but you really have to be careful what you say because of you know a declamation lawsuit or what he brought against you.

00:42:50.594 --> 00:43:12.023
She is deceased, so I don't have to worry about any of that, but she was absolutely one of the named abusers and so you know it's very difficult because this person that's saying, hey, you need to keep your kids safe, is actually the person that's preying on your child.

00:43:12.949 --> 00:43:15.344
Oh my gosh, that's so scary.

00:43:15.927 --> 00:43:16.449
So scary.

00:43:16.951 --> 00:43:21.882
And it's the people who are close to your child who is hurting them.

00:43:21.882 --> 00:43:27.931
So how messed up is that, as a kid, who's hurting them?

00:43:27.931 --> 00:43:28.673
So how messed up is that, as a kid?

00:43:28.673 --> 00:43:34.132
The people that are supposed to be protecting you when they're you know, when they're watching him are the ones who are actually hurting him.

00:43:34.795 --> 00:43:38.951
Well, and I've learned through therapy over the years, and this is an excellent point.

00:43:38.951 --> 00:43:45.391
I was so confused because I couldn't understand why my son would say that he missed his job, like when he wasn't around.

00:43:45.610 --> 00:43:45.931
Yes.

00:43:46.952 --> 00:43:56.097
I was so completely confused because I thought you know that you're being abused by him and all of these people in this family and you miss them.

00:43:56.097 --> 00:44:06.425
But it's in our DNA, right, it's in our person to want to be connected to our parents.

00:44:06.425 --> 00:44:09.166
We want to be loved by our parents.

00:44:09.166 --> 00:44:10.568
We miss our parents.

00:44:10.568 --> 00:44:21.329
I mean, there's things that people have endured from their parents that are just unspeakable, but they still miss them because they miss what they want to have with that person.

00:44:22.210 --> 00:44:32.806
And that's what's so perverse about all of it, because he did miss his dad, even though his dad was a perpetrator and an abuser.

00:44:34.150 --> 00:44:51.317
Yeah, I mean, it's a real thing that happens to a lot of people.

00:44:51.777 --> 00:44:52.420
Absolutely.

00:44:52.940 --> 00:45:18.393
I'm not sure why that happens, but I think when people hurt us, it hurts us so deeply in our emotions are so connected and it like, if there's hate, there's love, if there's, you know, and I think that it just kind of triggers all of that within us and it creates some kind of a connection that's definitely unhealthy 100%.

00:45:18.452 --> 00:45:19.898
There's soul ties there, for sure.

00:45:21.791 --> 00:45:26.443
Now, in a point in your book you start talking about friends who started to see things.

00:45:26.443 --> 00:45:28.313
What did you feel about?

00:45:28.313 --> 00:45:35.340
I think it was Meredith who noticed the bruises, and then you also had somebody that offered to marry you.

00:45:35.340 --> 00:45:37.878
I mean, they wanted to rescue you.

00:45:37.878 --> 00:45:40.376
So you had friends who really wanted to help.

00:45:41.159 --> 00:45:41.780
I really did.

00:45:41.780 --> 00:45:47.621
I had a great group of friends that I don't know.

00:45:47.621 --> 00:45:56.668
I still feel like, wow, I'm so blessed to have people like that in my life that loved me enough to.

00:45:56.668 --> 00:46:12.197
I mean, when I was pregnant with Ryland and I was going through that phase of I don't know if I should marry him or not, and my friend was like oh my gosh, like I would love to marry you, like I would take care of you and this baby, like absolutely.

00:46:12.197 --> 00:46:14.742
And Meredith, she was so close to me.

00:46:14.742 --> 00:46:25.956
When I did finally go back to work she was helping with Ryland when I was gone and she did see the bruises on Ryland and questioned me about it.

00:46:25.956 --> 00:46:45.333
So then it was like it's almost like I don't know how to say this but when you are the person who is living such a secret and a lie and you're trying to control what other people know about you and your, or once someone knows, it's almost like a relief.

00:46:45.333 --> 00:46:46.695
Does that make sense?

00:46:47.175 --> 00:46:47.675
No sure.

00:46:48.157 --> 00:46:53.344
Pressure cooker and you know, the top or the steam starts letting the steam off.

00:46:53.344 --> 00:46:58.807
It's kind of like it's starting to release some of that, because you don't have to bottle all that up inside of me.

00:46:58.807 --> 00:47:01.518
We're like, oh my God, somebody else knows.

00:47:01.518 --> 00:47:09.554
And they think it's crazy too, and they know it's wrong too, and I'm not losing my mind, I'm not the crazy one.

00:47:09.554 --> 00:47:12.202
There's somebody crazy here, but it's not me, you know.

00:47:12.369 --> 00:47:23.333
Yeah, it starts validating what you're seeing, because you really do feel crazy at that point because everything that's happening you're feeling isn't really happening, because they're telling you.

00:47:23.333 --> 00:47:26.503
He's telling you it's not really happening really happening because they're telling you.

00:47:26.523 --> 00:47:27.967
he's telling you it's not really happening.

00:47:27.967 --> 00:47:31.831
So that's his own narrative.

00:47:31.831 --> 00:47:34.277
He's writing the story, you know, writing what he wants you to believe.

00:47:34.277 --> 00:47:34.960
Do you think he believed his lies?

00:47:34.960 --> 00:47:37.586
I think he got to a point where he did I do.

00:47:38.469 --> 00:47:53.980
Okay, I really wondered that because he got to so convincing I mean, he was always convincing, but he included so many different people in this like web of lies I started wondering if he actually believed him.

00:47:55.351 --> 00:47:56.076
I think he did.

00:47:56.076 --> 00:48:08.007
I mean, nobody will ever know, but I believe that he started just going down that trail of this really is reality, even though he was creating it as he went of this really is reality, even though he was creating it as he went.

00:48:11.550 --> 00:48:15.030
I mean, even his hairdresser was involved in a way, because I mean he even lied that his hair was straight.

00:48:15.590 --> 00:48:18.815
Don't even think you'd need to lie about Anne, like it's so wild.

00:48:18.815 --> 00:48:26.318
That's why he would lie, even if it served him better to tell the truth, I mean yeah, that's what a narcissist is, for sure.

00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:39.217
Yeah, so I started looking at one of the worst times under his control with you no electricity, no water.

00:48:39.940 --> 00:48:44.661
Nope and electric.

00:48:44.661 --> 00:48:46.467
The garage door won't go up because they can't get in.

00:48:46.547 --> 00:48:54.807
We don't have electric oh my gosh, you couldn't even bathe your son nope, I had to go to his parents house again.

00:48:55.068 --> 00:49:00.059
Convenient, because no one else could know that we didn't have electric or water right, right.

00:49:01.202 --> 00:49:02.251
I just don't understand.

00:49:02.251 --> 00:49:11.659
I mean, he would do something so outlandish too, and one of the things that he would get you for is because you would say a swear word.

00:49:11.659 --> 00:49:18.206
You know, I mean he did something so crazy and then turn it on you and say, but look at you.

00:49:18.206 --> 00:49:19.351
You swore.

00:49:19.351 --> 00:49:22.940
I mean you're a horrible person, because you said hell.

00:49:23.831 --> 00:49:30.012
Yeah, that's right, because you said hell.

00:49:30.012 --> 00:49:30.492
Yeah, that's right.

00:49:30.492 --> 00:49:36.403
It's the self-righteousness of the narcissist that really is so unreal, like I feel like that's just part of.

00:49:36.403 --> 00:49:47.813
They have to keep this up, keep this going, and they have to find anything and everything that you do to try to make you look, look bad, because otherwise you're going to be on to them and so they have to beat you down.

00:49:49.195 --> 00:49:49.456
Okay.

00:49:49.456 --> 00:49:58.253
It reaches a point in the story where your son comes over and hugs you, and I think that something happened inside of you when that happened.

00:50:00.336 --> 00:50:05.166
Yeah, I was at that time, I believe, pregnant with Mercedes, my daughter.

00:50:05.547 --> 00:50:06.128
Right right.

00:50:07.775 --> 00:50:22.518
It was just this moment where I couldn't believe that I'm a two-year-old who's consoling me because I'm so emotional and I didn't want him to grow up with such dysfunction Right and in my mind.

00:50:22.518 --> 00:50:31.121
I had no idea how I was going to escape, couldn't even begin to put the pieces together of a strategy or a plan.

00:50:31.121 --> 00:50:38.717
I just knew I'm going to get out of here and I'm not going to make him endure this anymore.

00:50:38.717 --> 00:50:41.442
This was prior.

00:50:41.442 --> 00:50:46.608
I just want to clarify this is prior to knowing about the sexual abuse and I did not know.

00:50:46.608 --> 00:50:48.710
You know what?

00:50:48.710 --> 00:50:49.451
Oh, absolutely.

00:50:49.451 --> 00:50:58.594
So when that started coming out, then, you know, it kind of ratcheted up the time, the timeframe for me to be able to escape.

00:50:59.456 --> 00:51:04.045
Yeah, I mean from the beginning of the story all the way through to the end.

00:51:04.045 --> 00:51:06.608
It was a completely different story.

00:51:06.608 --> 00:51:19.230
I mean watching you grow and the strength and the ability to really fight for yourself and your family was such a beautiful woven story within the story.

00:51:20.010 --> 00:51:20.431
Thank you.00:51:21.096 --> 00:51:24.260


One of the things that happened is you ended up with a book in your hand.00:51:24.260 --> 00:51:30.550


If I remember right Dr Wagner, I think it was and what happened there?00:51:48.014 --> 00:51:50.282


the book to read and it was called Murdered Heiress Living Witness, and he endured such abuse.00:51:50.282 --> 00:51:51.023


People were trying to kill her.00:51:51.023 --> 00:51:57.798


She was very, very, very wealthy and those that were closest to her.00:51:57.798 --> 00:52:02.025


They tried to murder her and she escaped.00:52:02.025 --> 00:52:05.268


And it's a crazy story, almost like mine.00:52:05.268 --> 00:52:06.851


You know, fact is stranger than fiction.00:52:06.851 --> 00:52:08.478


Hollywood can't write stuff like this.00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:22.534


And I felt like, oh my God, this woman who was electrocuted, left for dead, I mean jumped out of a hospital, you know window, and I mean it was the wildest story I'd ever read.00:52:22.534 --> 00:52:31.822


And I thought, oh my God, if she could get through that, I can get through this, I am going through this.00:52:31.822 --> 00:52:33.902


And it was literally a turning point.00:52:33.902 --> 00:52:39.887


So I'm glad you brought that up, ann, because for me I almost felt like I was living the life that he was living.00:52:39.887 --> 00:52:52.605


He wasn't who he said he was, who he was portraying to be.00:52:52.605 --> 00:52:57.527


He was the first one of me to believe he was did not exist.00:52:57.527 --> 00:53:04.224


That person was just a character in one of his plays, like he really was a different person.00:53:04.224 --> 00:53:15.755


And so I had this like inner struggle, because I was pretending to him that I was still all in, but in the back of my mind.00:53:15.755 --> 00:53:19.784


I was plotting my escape for my son and I and my unborn baby.00:53:19.905 --> 00:53:31.478


I was pregnant at the time, so it was like I'm living a duplicitous life, like I'm pretending, like I'm all in, but I'm really, I'm checked out, I'm leaving, I just don't know how or when, but I'm getting out of here.00:53:31.478 --> 00:53:37.356


So I started, and I started, you know, vacillating, because it was like is this wrong of me?00:53:37.356 --> 00:53:38.760


Am I being deceptive?00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:40.963


Am I being you know um untrue?00:53:40.963 --> 00:53:45.250


Or you know untrue, or, you know, am I lying somehow?00:53:45.250 --> 00:53:51.742


And then I thought, no, I'm protecting myself and my child and my unborn child.00:53:51.742 --> 00:53:58.380


So I had this inner struggle, this battle, and I started gaining strength.00:53:58.380 --> 00:54:06.735


I started really getting a little bit stronger every single day, and that was reading that book helped me get to that point.00:54:07.338 --> 00:54:10.664


You could feel your strength and it was really empowering.00:54:10.664 --> 00:54:11.967


You had a meeting.00:54:11.967 --> 00:54:18.708


You set up a meeting with a pastor because you guys needed money, and that I loved it.00:54:18.708 --> 00:54:21.376


If you could talk a little bit about that.00:54:21.376 --> 00:54:23.918


I mean, I'm sure he didn't even want to go, if you could talk a little bit about that.00:54:23.918 --> 00:54:25.701


I mean, I'm sure he didn't even want to go, but you scheduled the meeting.00:54:25.701 --> 00:54:31.606


He ends up going and this pastor lady puts him in his place a little bit, and so do you.00:54:32.586 --> 00:54:50.449


It was actually really liberating, ann, I bet, because, for you know, almost like two years, two and a half years, I had been living, you know, alive, like everything's fine, and now this stack of cards, this house of cards, is starting to slowly fall apart.00:54:50.449 --> 00:55:07.688


And so when I went to her, I knew that she was a no-nonsense lady and I knew that he was, yeah, and I knew that he was so worried about what she thought that if he didn't show up for the meeting, that it was going to make him look bad.00:55:08.576 --> 00:55:19.934


And remember it's all about appearances, so he doesn't want to look bad so he's so up for the meeting and yeah, basically she just called him out, she called him on the carpet, on everything.00:55:19.934 --> 00:55:28.166


She's like you know, you're not being a good husband, you're not being a good father, you're not even paying the bills, You're not taking care of your household.00:55:28.166 --> 00:55:32.389


Like, yeah, you're supposed to be doing all of these things, you're not doing any of it.00:55:32.389 --> 00:55:33.934


Like you need to get it together.00:55:33.934 --> 00:55:35.777


And I mean it was for me.00:55:35.777 --> 00:55:38.780


I was just like yes, like I've been saying this.00:55:38.780 --> 00:55:40.242


He's not listening.00:55:41.885 --> 00:55:46.710


And you used I think it was you who used the scripture against him.00:55:46.710 --> 00:55:47.751


Yeah, Is that?00:55:47.795 --> 00:55:48.096


correct.00:55:48.096 --> 00:55:49.057


Yeah, I did.00:55:49.057 --> 00:55:55.565


I mean, you know it's funny, because I knew what the Bible said too, even though it had been used to manipulate me.00:55:55.565 --> 00:56:01.130


I know what truth is, and it's like well, you're supposed to be the head of your house and the priest of your home.00:56:01.130 --> 00:56:02.215


That's what the Bible says.00:56:02.215 --> 00:56:05.523


So why aren't you taking care of your family and why aren't you you?00:56:05.563 --> 00:56:06.164


know what I mean.00:56:06.164 --> 00:56:10.621


The husband is supposed to love his wife the way Christ loved the church.00:56:10.762 --> 00:56:14.615


That's exactly right and I did, and that's what the scripture says.00:56:14.615 --> 00:56:17.764


I mean it doesn't mean you're wife, like Christ, loved the church.00:56:17.764 --> 00:56:23.824


But well, hello, god gave this life for the church, so it's like you're not giving up anything.00:56:23.824 --> 00:56:25.027


Everything's about you.00:56:26.277 --> 00:56:27.000


It really was.00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:28.103


It really was.00:56:28.103 --> 00:56:31.804


And he was so good about keeping everything under the radar too.00:56:31.804 --> 00:56:33.380


I mean, that was another part of it.00:56:33.380 --> 00:56:43.619


You say at one point in the book that he never threatened you, he never struck you and he was doing everything to make you look like you were the crazy one.00:56:43.619 --> 00:56:51.586


So I mean, even the police got involved and his friends show up and I just was like what?00:56:51.586 --> 00:56:57.211


And every time everybody believed him and it made you out to be crazy.00:56:57.211 --> 00:57:04.958


And he actually said that he didn't feel safe, handing your son over to you.00:57:04.978 --> 00:57:05.981


That's exactly what he said.00:57:05.981 --> 00:57:07.324


It's wild.00:57:07.324 --> 00:57:10.500


I mean you feel like you're living in the twilight zone.00:57:10.500 --> 00:57:12.505


I mean you really do.00:57:12.505 --> 00:57:15.699


You're like is anybody here?00:57:15.699 --> 00:57:16.179


Like?00:57:16.179 --> 00:57:18.403


Is everybody in my world?00:57:18.403 --> 00:57:19.385


Like against me?00:57:19.385 --> 00:57:21.208


Like what is happening?00:57:21.208 --> 00:57:26.347


I mean police show up and it's his friends that are the police officers that show up, you know.00:57:26.347 --> 00:57:29.481


So you can't even call the police and get help.00:57:29.862 --> 00:57:30.623


I didn't know.00:57:30.623 --> 00:57:32.248


I was just like what?00:57:32.248 --> 00:57:35.844


So how did you finally leave him?