Physically Revisiting Trauma

Speaker 1: 0:08

Welcome to Real Talk. I am Ann and I'm Denise. We have Denise on today for a special episode. You know we talk a lot on Real Talk about memories and many of them can be very painful and many of us never look back. But some of us actually make podcasts about it and some of us actually write books, like Denise has. She's writing a book right now and I have written a book and some of us actually revisit the scene of the crime. It actually took me in this case it's not a crime, but it took me over 20 years to revisit my dad's grave, since I had been a kid. I mean, I never went. You know I was drawn to find my biological mom's home after years that I had been there as a kid and I needed for some reason, to find it and drive by. You know I had a horrific thing happen to me in a place. It was absolutely and I never even talk about it on the podcast and maybe someday I will but I did revisit that place. So it's really interesting how sometimes we're drawn to revisit and I think it's part of the healing At least it was for me. Denise, you had a unique experience recently where you were able to go back to your home. Maybe you could remind our listeners and maybe tell any new listeners a reason as to why you recently took this trip and why it was so significant. Now I was able to read your book and kind of go over I'm still working on the draft and looking over it and everything, which it's quite the story and I think everybody really needs to hear this but as I read it I realized even more how much of an unamazing person you really are and how resilient and brave you are. So I mean I am really thankful that you're even telling your story.

Speaker 2: 2:16

Yeah, well, I guess for whoever's new, I did grow up. I was product of two drug-addicted teens and I grew up in a very abusive environment where I hit every form of abuse to the point where my mother's drug addiction had her, my guess. Use me as some kind of bargaining payment, whatever you want to call it, and a lot of people don't talk about that. So yeah, it's been quite a background.

Speaker 1: 2:59

So you actually got to go back and visit where some of these things happened.

Speaker 2: 3:05

Yeah, down the street. So I didn't go in the house, but we lived at so many different places. So the house that I saw I didn't go in kind of like you. It was just like from the outside and you could see the windows where the bathroom was and the front door and different things like that. So because my childhood babysitter, who is my good memories, just lives a couple houses down, there are a lot of things that go along with when you. I think that's why maybe it was a little bit easier, maybe this time because I am in a good spot versus inside the shady part and the abuse that I faced in that home. There were a couple times where there was a sexual abuse that happened when my mother would come and visit, but it was. There was a lot of chaos, turmoil, manipulating, this game of chess that I talk about in the book. So there are feelings there that are not great and there are places where we used to live a couple different ones, that I cannot still, to this day, kind of go by. It's like a little bit like I don't know, I don't know. So a couple of them I can, but a couple of them it's like a trigger and I just can't. I haven't gotten to that point in my life. I think I'm gradually getting there, but yeah, it's a teetering thing.

Speaker 1: 4:40

So in your book you were able to really share a lot of what happened to you, but also one of the things that you really share. I mean, the book is a lot about the people who helped you, which I absolutely love. So you actually went to that area to be able to share your book and what you wrote about this special person in your life and give her a copy of that book.

Speaker 2: 5:06

Yeah, and of course it's not finalized or finished. We're still editing. And there's a lot more that I'm going to put in, but it was a good chunk of everything. And so I revisited my high school teacher my health teacher and I was very close with her and we have a very close relationship. I would call it close as adults, but I never. I think she's known her importance in my life, but just how some people are like, oh, this is important. But to really be able to give her this book and tell her what was going on in school or in my life during the time she was with me, that she had no idea that was happening, and so it's kind of like relationship of being able to say here's the things that you did for me and why they were so impactful, because while you're doing this at school and making me feel this way, I'm going home every night and getting a whole opposite thing. So you were the reason why I got up and you're the reason why I show up, and so it was more of telling her and I think that's really a big thing too you could tell somebody, you made a difference in my life. But I think the big impact that I wanted to share is what was actually happening in my life during that time, so that I don't know. I just wanted her to know, because I always tell her you've been so close to me, you're this, but you don't even know how much of an impact. So, being able to share, like I said, being able to share the trauma that was going on at home with her, like I was having this trauma, being able to share that and then telling her what we used to do, we used to go and send her car, she would like come talk to me, and so it was. Hey, do you remember those days? She would remember those days, but she had no idea. The opposite side. So it's really kind of putting there the big picture of this impact. I can now explain to you more what was happening. And you had no idea, but you still made this amazing thing. You raised me. To be certain, I talk about the women who raised me and all these different. So, yeah, I wanted to. She's older, so I had a dream about her husband who had passed away a year ago and it was In our lifetime. We don't always have those vivid dreams and this was vivid and for years she had told me to write a book. She's like you really need to write your story. There are so many people that can benefit from it. And I kind of put it off, put it off, and her husband came to me in this dream and he picked up a book that was beside me and it was kind of like that okay, I gotcha, I see ya, and it was so easy to write and flowing. And then it was for me like being able to hand her that now she knows it's not complete, but to say you asked me to do this, so I want to do this. I want to give it to you, and now you can read my life, the things you did in it now, and so, yeah, it was big. It was very important for me to do that.

Speaker 1: 8:28

How was she when you actually handed it to her? I mean, what an amazing experience.

Speaker 2: 8:33

Oh yeah, well, she was shocked. She was like, wait, you did this. She was just like she was floored because I had put it off for so long that she was in disbelief and of course she didn't read it when I was there, but she did the next day and I don't know how far she got. But she said you're such an amazing. I just didn't know and it hurts me to see that you had all this in you or happening to you, but look at how amazing you are. It was one of those. Growing up, I had wished for these parents and I found myself with these women who, I say, raised me by their little things that they did, wanting them to be proud of me, because as a kid, you want your parent to be proud, and so she tells me she's so proud and all this other stuff. There's something that comes with that. It's like this was my whole thing. I wanted to make the people who made a difference in my life. I wanted them to be proud of me. It's like the women.

Speaker 1: 9:36

Oh, I 100% have that in my life, where the people and some of them I want them to be proud of me, but then I had some haters along the way. I had some people that thought you know, she's never going to make it, and I think that they're proud of me and surprised and you know, there's that always, that and I think everybody has that people that kind of motivate them forward because they didn't believe in them. But it's kind of cool to be. I think that they're really shocked to see that not only am I able to take care of myself but I can take care of. I had two older kids and now I'm. I have my grandkids that I adopted and I'm raising them and they have special needs and I'm able to Take care of many, many things. Multitask, you know, sometimes I'm doing 10 things at once and it's amazing when I wasn't even able to take care of myself and now I'm able to do all of these things. And really it's about maturity and I think that it took me a long time to Reach my age.

Speaker 2: 10:41

I always say you know.

Speaker 1: 10:43

I was always so far behind and I think it was because of my disabilities, but also because of the trauma I mean, when you get stuck at a certain age and you can't move forward. You just can't move past that.

Speaker 2: 10:55

So you're stuck in that age, like that's where you felt you were stuck at like, even though you are an adult now. So you still felt like you were stuck at this younger age.

Speaker 1: 11:04

I did.

Speaker 2: 11:05

Uh-huh Okay.

Speaker 1: 11:06

Yeah, it took a long time for me to reach, you know, an adult age.

Speaker 2: 11:13

Yeah, well, that's interesting. Once again, here we go with our similarities. I up until, I guess, covid, when I had to be forced to kind of you know, you don't have that, that runaway. You know, as we're trauma survivors, we run away by keeping ourselves busy and distracted, and you don't. You think you've faced a lot of the things and you work Through them, but, man, you don't know what you have haven't faced until you know you can't run. And one of the things that really made a point is I understand completely when you say you weren't, you didn't grow up yet. I had always been stuck at 14, because that's where Everything, like the storm, started to brew of me using my voice, and then, you know, being in the shelter and then just everything. And so I had someone tell me a number of years ago, a good another teacher of mine that I, you know, view as an older sister, and she said I was talking about, you know, I was still trying to work out things, and I was telling her about another teacher, my favorite teacher, and she stopped me and she said Denise, you are talking as if you're 14, you need to not. And that was like the most eye-opening thing, and I feel like I'm still Getting older, I'm still Grow up, because I don't, like you know, I couldn't stop being 14 and then just go to I don't know, it's probably 45, something like that. So I've I've been growing up, you know, to recognize. Yeah, she stopped me. She's like you are talking as if you're 14 and you're not 14. So, yeah, that I mean, I get it. That was I tell you. We have so many similarities it's almost scary.

Speaker 1: 13:05

You know well, I think trauma is really relatable.

Speaker 2: 13:08

I mean I think that it's.

Speaker 1: 13:09

You know, trauma is trauma and regardless of what your experiences are, it's affects many people. I think the same way. So, yeah, I mean it's a surprise me.

Speaker 2: 13:22

Yeah, it's a relatability again, you know, and there's something that's really Maybe healing in that sense that you recognize, I mean, as we are talking and we share about our traumas, and then this recognizable bond or Coincidence between us, and I think that that's what makes, you know, having our conversations back and forth it's so easy because you understand, there's so many Relatability that you don't feel alone. It's like this oh, there's someone else out there that gets it.

Speaker 1: 13:54

Yeah, and I think that some of the things that we're talking about is interesting because it's things that you don't see. I mean, yeah, there's the normal, maybe the fight or flight or the PTSD or those kind of things that most people would relate with, but there's things like that we talk about, like dreaming before you go to sleep of, you know, a family, and those kind of things are the things that I think people don't really talk about, that aren't seen and aren't really part of that, but we're talking about it and and the same.

Speaker 2: 14:26

Like you know, as we're talking now about revisiting things, I don't think I've heard a lot of people talk about that, which again brings me to these are great conversations to have and to Be able to share so that somebody else I call it the we're the light in someone else's darkness. Right they can.

Speaker 1: 14:46

You know they see our light, that you know they're walking towards that light in Process now, when you got to go there, I mean you got to meet with that lady, but you also got to meet with your babysitter that you talked about just a little bit ago. So how did that go?

Speaker 2: 15:03

Well, it's good. So we have been in contact. Every time I go up, I, I do talk to her, like we try to go to breakfast or or something, and every day we play wordle Together. You know her daughter, seven years younger than me, but so I grew up with you know her daughter. You know six years that I was there as her daughter grew, so did I. But you know, again, what I was able to do is physically couldn't give her that book. But and it was really like a last-minute decision I emailed her it and so she had no idea. I mean, she knew that things were bad in my house, but she didn't know her role. Okay, and so yeah, I was a. She is in the book and so she didn't know her role in my life. And being able to share that and say this was your role and this is what I remember and this is how, in in my mind, you raised me to be this way. And One of the other things again, because we talk, you know, and we're in this group, chat with her daughter, me and her, or her and I her daughter I see how the two of them a mother daughter bond and all the things that they do, so for me I feel like it's a continuation of learning, of being able to Grasp. And again, I put that in the book and it's not something that she knew and and so I don't know. She hasn't said anything yet. She read it yet. So it might have been. You know, I was there Friday, so maybe she's gotten to it. I don't know how people are gonna react, but you do hope that they understand the big impact and I'll go through this. We, you know, you said how was that going there? It's so Strange to me that when I went there, like as a kid, I thought this was the biggest house you know it was being, and they had a bookshelf and they had that bookshelf filled with books and I didn't have that at home. And they had a backyard with a swing and a kiddie pool in this garage and we used to play back there all the time. And I go there and I'm like wow, it's not as big as it was. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's still like I go into it and I'm like, man, this is like it's the same house, but you know there are some things that haven't changed in the house. So it's kind of like, oh my gosh, nostalgia. I guess because in her house. There was good feelings In her house. I had the upbringing and and, like I said, it's only down the street from my, the house that you know I grew up in for six years, you know, so that's a long time it is, it is, and so, yeah, and again outside of the house, her house I can see the back window where our bathroom was and the poor and you know, and I go around because that's the main road, so if I go buy it, there's the porch that I used to sit at and Look out at my neighbors across the street who was a mom with her kid and I used to like Wish that that was my mom. I think you shared your poem, the lat one of the wine time. We did the podcast and I put that in my book because, you know, here I am sitting on a ledge looking into this house where I Wish that I was. I may have even put on a tape how like this is, how crazy I wanted a mom. That I. That I think I actually recorded, you know, on the boombox when you used to have that back in the.

Speaker 1: 18:44

I used to have one of those.

Speaker 2: 18:46

Yeah, and yeah, I want to say that I recorded saying Something to that fact, like, oh, you're so pretty and you're so kind, and I wish I swear, and I, you know, it just might be in my mind or maybe it's because that's what I was thinking, but I put on there something and I played it because, you know, there the street was kind of wide because it was like a fork in the road and she was on the other side of the fork. So it's, you know, I I go, look in that porch and I'm like man Every there are so many memories of being on that porch. But I also look at that house and I remember those traumatic Experiences. I think I'm getting better with it. I don't, you know, I almost try to avoid it because her house, I mean, I could avoid a little bit of it, but Um, but I'm getting better, so it's a little bit better. There are still houses I can't go near, but there are houses that I pass and I remember everything.

Speaker 1: 19:48

Do you think it's healing to revisit, to go back? Do you think it's part of the healing?

Speaker 2: 19:55

Yeah, no, I think some way it is Because, you know, as I share my story, I share it, you know, in speeches and keynotes and then more of it that I can discuss in the book it's it's taking control of my story and so I think, as I am being able to heal over here, which is like far away, I think every time I go back and I I have a lot of just in general, that area is very anxiety, like you know, fitting in with I went by my high school and I just remember the angst of kids had these groups and I just never quite knew where I fit in. And all I keep thinking about is with high school is I was trying to survive at home. But I think as I Get older and I'm able to take control of this part of my life, especially sharing in the book or sharing wherever, I think each time I go up there's it, I become more confident around it, a little bit stronger around it. But I think too, sometimes maybe it's a mood.

Speaker 1: 21:03

Yeah, I have gone in those areas like I talked about and I think sometimes it's making new memories. It's like Adding a positive memory on top of what happened there. So the memory kind of changes a little bit and it's not as strong as it used to be. It's, you know, as a definition. Just that's all it was to me. Yeah, I still have a really hard time with the house that I grew up in. I had the opportunity for me to Get the house because my mom, my adopted mom she went through this phase of dating and she had this really weird time in her life and I think it was because of a fear of she was getting older and she had some health problems and for whatever reason, she really started dating around and to get married. And she did, and and it cost her a lot. And she had said to me right before she got married she's like, look, I'm gonna move in with this guy and you can have the house. And I went there with a friend of mine and we sat in the living room and I looked around and I was like I can't do it. No, I, I can't see myself living in this house. And you know, since then I've wondered what my life would be like if I would have said yes, and you know the things that I could have had differently. But I'm glad my life took the path that it did. And then, you know, it made me realize, as I looked back at those decisions, where would our lives had ended up if we would have taken the opposite path, in the fork of the road, you know I mean I that happens to all of us sometimes, I guess where we reach a really major life decision I know that I wouldn't have my kids now, and so I look at that kind of thing and I'm really blessed For the life decisions that I did make, in the midst of trauma, I guess.

Speaker 2: 23:10

Yeah, I don't think I could live in a house that I was in like. I couldn't live in that house. Even Even though it had less trauma than the other houses, I still couldn't do it. It was for me and I think that's what you're saying too is for me to write my own story. I got to write my own story and yeah, I mean, yeah, and that means I have to close that chapter and then start this new book, right? So I think if I was in there, I think those, I think I would have a lot more triggers and how do you? I don't think I could have worked through them the way that I have. I don't think that that I would be as Adult now as I was. I think I would have been stuck in whatever age I was when I was in that house. At least that's in my mind.

Speaker 1: 24:00

I think that some people would have looked at me as if you know I mean you're being given a house, the house is been paid for and Financially I would have been a lot better off. We've struggled to Pay houses and everything else along the way and I had this mortgage and you know I wouldn't have it. But yeah, I'm a different person Mentally and emotionally because I chose my own path.

Speaker 2: 24:28

Yep, yeah, and you separated yourself. I think that that's a big thing for us is that we can't like you? I've gone through good choices and bad choices and you have to remove yourself from the environment. For me, actually, I met my husband. I was 25, 24, 25, and he's in the Air Force or what. He retired. But we got moved and it was the first time that I physically moved from the Environment, and I don't mean just the house. When I go back to New Jersey, in that whole area, there is a story all out there that I'm no longer in, and so you know, I had to physically remove myself from that story in order to realize I needed to shift and separate. Like you said, if somebody gave me a house, I don't think I wouldn't. You know, I would rather struggle with a mortgage and grow as a person and change and and build my own life versus that financial freedom.

Speaker 1: 25:32

Yeah, my neighbor back then still lives in the same house. Yeah, and we're Facebook friends, yeah, and he told me you know the lady in my old house that had bought it from I guess my mom is thinking about moving and he said oh, you know, I'd love to have you as a neighbor again. I'm just letting you know if you ever want that house, it's gonna be maybe up for sale. And I actually in my head, because all I gotta tell you is it's a beautiful house, it's, it's absolutely huge, with a beautiful backyard and with these woods Behind it. That I lived in. I loved going in those woods and I did have. You know, when you're living in a traumatic environment and you revisit there's, you remember the bed.

Speaker 2: 26:18

Yes.

Speaker 1: 26:19

I can still see myself playing in those woods and all the good times that I had. That's where the when some of that comes in, where I just I'm not really sure. But I Can't get myself to go in those four walls again where that poem came from. It was in the bedroom in that house. Yeah and I can't go back into that bedroom. I don't think, going driving by and Maybe evens going through the house, knocking on that door and say you know we used to live here. Can I come in? Would you do that? Would you good?

Speaker 2: 26:56

No, you don't think no, no, I and I lived multiple places, so I can say that if, if I were to go through one house, that would be the house my neighbor, that my babysitter was at that house I would be able to. I feel like I go through that one, like there was an apartment right after that that I moved in with my mother because that's when she got custody and, like you, with the window, and I said that's the similarity, is that window and I, if I pass that, that place, there's a, there's a lump I get because I remember the window and, like you, I remember staring out and I had headphones on and I was just listening to music, envisioning how it would happen, who would come, and One of the things for me was in that window and in that bedroom so that that particular house I Would sleep. I had a packed bag under my bed and, you know, in hopes of a rescue, I'd have it and we'd leave. I would constantly be in that bed. So I know what wall my bed was on. It was a one bedroom, so we shared the bedroom and I remember my bed and I remember my bed, the foot of my bed, coming to that window, and I remember just sitting there, worry it and wondering like is someone out there, like in your poem, someone out there for me, is someone thinking of me? Because I just wanted to have, and I still do. I'm an adult and I think I was living in this 14 year old world. Yeah and I'm slowly getting out of that that I I would be afraid if I Went back into that because there was a lot of different windows, but that was where I was stuck at 14 and when I finally you know, that was the place that I tried to take my life and that that apartment I, I just couldn't face it and so and the other ones prior to it not at all I couldn't go in. The only one that I could probably go in, like I said, is around the corner from my babysitter and I think if I ever had to go through that house, I need her to be with me.

Speaker 1: 29:06

Okay, that's interesting. Yeah, I did go to. You know, reunions are interesting, mmm, I do not go to my high school reunions really, but I did go to a couple and you know, when they have the big football game where it's, like, you know, reunion night and people from all the years can come and they have a tent and everybody goes in the tent and you can see people and things like that and teachers can show up and I Did do a couple of those and I went in the one night, the one and I saw some really friendly faces and talked to them and I saw a teacher that was kind of funny because he was my seventh grade math teacher and I had a crush on him. I just thought he was it. He was it and I didn't hide it because I had written. I had written all over my sign. Oh, he was a science teacher too, all over my science and you know I love mr Frane all over. I had hearts and I love mr Frane. I mean I don't know what that's about, but I mean I just thought she was really cute. I mean I don't think I was the only one that felt that that's Fantastic, but I ran into him in a football game and he was my teacher during Probably my worst year of all my years because my dad died in sixth grade. You know, my sister was given into the system. It was an absolutely horrible year. The summer was absolutely horrible, where my mom which I never even mentioned in the podcast Was running away from what she did in the midst of tragedy Wasn't which was not good choices. And so she picked you know she just up and took us on this six-week escape across the country. Oh my, and I never knew where we were gonna go, what was gonna happen to us along the way when we were gonna return. I didn't even know if we were gonna return home. It was the craziest six weeks of my life. But then we do get back in time for seventh grade and I go into seventh grade and there's my this really handsome teacher. But everything else that happened to me I've probably it was my most depressed year and I acted strange, I guess because of how un-sort I was. Nothing in my world was making sense. I ran away from home that year and I showed up at a teacher's house, which they didn't look at as a very positive thing. They kind of looked at me as this very needy, hurting kid. And back in the day now, today, today, I honestly think that they view hurting kids differently. Back then they viewed people like us as, oh, you're just annoying and you're just an attention seeker, and it had nothing to do with that. I was going home to a horrible situation and I was just looking for somebody anybody at that point in my life, to pay attention to what was going on with me. But with all that said, I saw him at a that football game reunion night and the only thing he said to me and I was like oh, mr Frane, you know, and I just you know. And he's like oh, ann, yeah, I remember you had troubles. And I just thought, okay, that's bad because that's what you remember does, because I wish that you knew me now, because I'm not that person and yeah, I did have troubles, but I wish that you didn't open that with that line yeah, yeah, but he did, that's all that he said and I just went, yeah, and then I left. I mean, I didn't what was I even gonna respond to that?

Speaker 2: 33:33

Yeah, I don't know that's. I worry about that too, and I think I said that in the book about my favorite teacher and you know something that happened in the summer between you know, I left eighth grade, which she was my teacher, to ninth grade and you know that's a crazy area During that year, when I was 14, you know that eighth grade year was a turmoil for me and I loved this one teacher and, you know, wished you know that she would take me and I had all these other teachers and there was another teacher who was really kind to me, even though I was afraid of her, wasn't afraid of too many teachers, but I had this perception that they would view me now, remembering me, as the troubled kid. Then, you know, maybe look at me and say you know, I know things were difficult for you back then, but you look wonderful or I'm proud because you have. Life is so much different. That's my fear. Nobody said it to me, but I've not been around people like that. I mean, I haven't been in the presence of those teachers, my eighth grade year teachers who you know I absolutely had so many memories with that. I haven't been around that so I wouldn't know. But you know what? I take that back. I saw my English teacher, a nice lady. I can't think of her name right now Heran, miss Heran and I saw her. My daughter was probably maybe like a year old, if that, maybe something of that sort. I was visiting New Jersey and I saw her at a restaurant and I went up and said hi and she. The only thing she said to me was she's like I just remember wanting to make sure that we kept you in school. We were just, you know, we didn't want you to not be in school, we wanted you to be in school. And I never really quite understand that, but it goes over in my head, but that's her memory of me, you know which. I don't know how I feel about that. Right, like, does she feel like I was that kid, the attention seeker, the, this, the. I mean, that's one of the things I do struggle with, especially for the teachers, like that teacher for you, who you absolutely you know you were in love with you, you I had to brush on. Yeah, okay, I haven't. I don't think I've ever had that like that, but interesting, I wouldn't know how to react. You know you had troubles.

Speaker 1: 36:02

I'm Facebook friends with another teacher who I was my homeroom teacher or whatever the English teacher that same exact year, and I am Facebook friends with her and I really, I really liked her and I think that she would always go down the street to drop her daughter off at a my one of my friends houses because her mom was babysitting her daughter while she was at school and I found this out that she did that, so I would ride my bike down whenever I knew that she was down there and I would try to like. You know, and I know that I came across as that person that was just trying to get attention, but when you think about it, I was probably just trying to get attention because I was always looking for what you talk about. I was always looking for that 30 seconds of hi, how are you, how are you doing? You know, and really I gotta be honest, that is all that I wanted, but because I wasn't really getting it, I was always seeking for it, yeah, and so it came across as attention seeking.

Speaker 2: 37:19

Yeah, the same thing, Like those little small moments you just wanna be seen, Right yeah?

Speaker 1: 37:24

that really was it.

Speaker 2: 37:25

That's what we wanted to be seen and and, but I had those. I was a bad kid, like you know. You're searching for attention and after you're not getting it positively, you're like Absolutely right, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 37:40

And that's what also happened to me. I had a younger friend of mine and he was a freshman and I was a junior senior, I think, senior at the time and and he would get me alcohol and other people and we would drink in the bathroom and we would keep the alcohol bottle at the bottom of the paper towels, put all the paper towels on top of it in the trash can and go into the bathroom and you know, and that kind of stuff, it stuff. And that was the kind of person that I became, because I was like you know what, if you're not gonna pay attention to me, just you know, for being a good kid, then you're gonna pay attention to me because I'm making bad choices.

Speaker 2: 38:22

Yeah, and again, this is so spooky that we have so many similarities. But it was sixth grade and my she'll kill me, but One of my closest friends from the fourth grade on, she used to bring it in In Contain what is it thermos is? And that was in eight. I think I started drinking in sixth grade, but in school Me too, yeah, and in school it was in eighth grade. I think it goes to the point of Abandonment issues too, where you're just testing it. I think that's what you had mentioned testing to see who's gonna leave you and you figure, you know what, if you're not gonna give me positivity, I'm gonna do this. Just get it over with you know, just whatever.

Speaker 1: 39:10

Back to my high school. I had been in the plays and in high school and it was one of my favorite places to be was on stage and I ended up seeing that teacher that I just talked about, the woman, my seventh grade teacher and so I saw her at a play that I was at at high school. She came back and and I was like oh hi, you know. And she was like oh hi, oh, you know, and I was just like crushing really. I mean I, yes, I get it, I was not a great person back then, but people Change. I have changed. I've grown up. I'm not that person you know. So it's interesting when you go back and you really visit some of these places where you were going through horrific traumatic things, yeah, and people didn't know what was going on, because back then and I'm gonna say this again people were looked at differently if you had traumatic things happen to you and you were looked at as that needy kid in the class, and nowadays All the kids have something going on and they have so many helps in place now with ease and. You know, hurts and pains and losses and all that stuff are so recognized within the classroom and Kids are helped at so much of a deeper level than they were back when I went and probably even when you went. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, um to. It's just a shame, it's just like you know what you know. I have talked about mr Belcher now. He was my fifth grade teacher who came up to me after my dad had passed away and he was that huge man that got down on my level to say, how are you doing? I had he's since passed, but before that I had run into him many times in different places and he always and how are you? Oh, it's so good to see you, how's your mom? Or whatever you know, and that just made my heart smile and really that's what it's about. I mean, even years later, 10, 20 years later, if you run into a teacher and it wasn't a great experience it's just like, hi, how are you doing today? How, what's going on? You know, be excited, get, give that one minute of Happiness to that person to let him know hey, I remember you, how are you doing?

Speaker 2: 41:47

Yeah, you know what that? Yeah, I think that that I crave. I've not had that. I haven't had anybody ask me, and I've seen a couple of teachers outside the ones that are that I reconnected with, that are in my life that make an influence on me. Now it would just. What would be awesome? And this is all we would need is how are you? What's you know? How's your life? Well, how are you? That's it. I would be the same way. Just give me that, because then I know that you recognize that now I'm not that little kid anymore, I'm this grown adult and if you ask me, how am I? I can share with you. Hey, yeah, I'm great. I've been married 23 years. We've got two incredible kids. I am no longer Connected with my family because I have this. You know, I had that trauma. Now I'm building my own life and you know how are you? I want to share, share my successes, and so and especially to those teachers and so and I'll go backwards and kind of connect where we were talking about revisiting things, it was At that school that I was in an eighth grade, where I found the courage to, you know, say something a little bit, but it was the first time I was in that school since I was in eighth grade and it it was different again, like when you're younger, everything's huge and I go in there and it's compact and it just was. I don't know how I, I don't know how I felt. It was just a different. I just felt like maybe it wasn't, like I wasn't supposed to be there, do you know, like a force thing. I'm not quite sure, but I revisited that and that was, uh, that was another hard thing when you revisit Maybe your school, because for me school was the safety. School is where I got connected with these teachers. You know, those are the memories once again, and you, yeah, you look at that and and everything that was that year is in there. Well, I think.

Speaker 1: 43:52

I think for everybody, whether you had a great school connection and teachers, peers, everything was wonderful, um, no matter what was going on in your life at that time, when you step into that hallway and you're walking down, I think that you become that person. I really don't think that there's any getting away from that good or bad or whatever it is. Or you could stand in a certain spot and have a specific memory, or go into a certain classroom and remember that teacher. You know, this is really funny and I just have to share it because it went into my head and I just have to share how ornery I really was. Um, and if I walked into this specific classroom this is what I'm going to remember I had a teacher that and I was just Ornery as ornery could be I was always thinking about how I could make this teacher's life miserable. Well, she was dating another teacher within the school district and everybody pretty much knew that they were dating. And so I I can't believe I did this. I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell everybody what I did. She left the classroom in the morning. You know, everybody walked the hallways. Yeah, I walked past, walked past. I was waiting for her to leave her little spot in front of the door to do whatever. And she left. And as I walked down the hallway, I darted right into her classroom and I poured a bunch of rubbers on her desk and I I wrote on the chalkboard From so-and-so, which was this teacher yeah, oh, she was dating and I just ran out and then you know when I I wish that I would have been there the very second that she saw it, but, um, I didn't happen to be in like right after for homeroom or whatever. You know when I'm sitting there and she's just like who did this, who did this? And I was just like.

Speaker 2: 46:02

No who did this.

Speaker 1: 46:06

So, anyway, it was just like the yeah, I mean. But if I went into that classroom today, yeah, and you know what, that's the kind of stuff, this kind of fun to remember in the midst of trauma, because if I walked down the hallways and I felt, um, like this is where so-and-so bullied me, this is where so-and-so, you know, knocked down my books out of my hand, because they used to do that to me a lot, this one particular kid, uh, and just what you know. There could be so many bad memories, but, yeah, finding that laughter and finding, you know, and it's kind of I'm really proud of me and I'm sure you did the same thing. You did whatever you could To survive and that was one of the things I did was get this sense of humor and be this rebel in kind of a fun way.

Speaker 2: 46:55

Yeah, I don't think I. I, of course, wanted to push the limits. Um, you know, growing up in in elementary school I was really good, like you know, very good. The only thing that I ever did really bad Was fifth grade, my fifth grade teacher. On april fools day she wrote on the uh, the board like I don't know noxious amount of homework and on this one page I got so angry I ripped the page out of the book so I couldn't do it. So that's my funny thing. The rest of the time, um, ooh, I was, I was probably a handful, I Used to get in fights all the time, um and so um, when we're talking about, like remembering in that class, and first of all, that's hysterical, I don't. I mean that is going to make me laugh all day thinking about that. My uh, the only like things I think about that I know I probably would go right back to that moment is the moment that that teacher Called me from my locker because we always had the end classes and then introduced me to this person. That's the 32nd moments where that came from as her Denise, and so I know if I get in that spot I'm going right back there.

Speaker 1: 48:08

So I was that kid that Pushing people away and the people, if I liked you, I was going to do that stuff to you. Oh, yeah, yeah, because I was pushing you away and that was just my coping. If I was ornery and I treated you really bad, it was probably because I liked you. Just letting you know. So would you walk through the streets with your family, with your kids?

Speaker 2: 48:37

Hmm, well, I don't think it's safe. I grew up in a city and the city has gotten worse.

Speaker 1: 48:44

Um, okay.

Speaker 2: 48:45

And so Trenton is uh, it's not a, I mean it's, it's, it's hard this time of year. I have driven past, um, I don't think I drove, drove past with my husband, but with my daughter as she's older. Um, she came to the babysitter's house, um, she's come to the miscedia who I went up with the book, um, but miscedia didn't live in our neighborhood, she lived somewhere else. But, um, we've passed and I said that was my house, up there is was our bathroom, that we looked out. Um okay, and when I showed her these things she really I don't, she didn't really know all the details yet you know, as she's turning 20 at the end of the week, she didn't know the details of the significance of those places. You know what I mean. But I've only taken her by one and so I'm not sure, because if I can't go buy it it's really hard for me to say you know here. And my husband again, he just started to know my past, even though he knew some things weren't right For him. He had said the reason why I don't want to hear it because it's not because I don't want to hear it, it's because it hurts to know that you had to go through so much stuff. So now I don't you know, say, oh, you should read this or oh, you should hear that. I you know because I understand where he is now, where I couldn't understand before. But so I don't think I would do that with him.

Speaker 1: 50:18

I took my kids to my dad's grave and my adopted mom. She's there too, and it was kind of interesting to walk around the cemetery because everybody knows everybody where I grew up. It's a really small town and I mean it was a big deal when we got to McDonald's and it's still that way. We call it Mayberry, because nothing changes. Everything is the same as when I went the same little supermarket is there and the one McDonald's is there, and you know, a couple stoplights. I mean it really hasn't changed. So it's really interesting to go back there and see the things. And I did take my kids to the cemetery there's one cemetery and to walk around that cemetery and just see everybody's graves and oh, they're so-and-so and so-and-so and there's this person's parent and there's, and you just know, everybody in the cemetery. And I walked around there with my kids and that was a big deal for me to kind of revisit some of that with them and for them to, you know, want to sit at my dad's grave and talk to him, and they did, and that was pretty cool actually. And I took my brother back there. He had been here and he hadn't been to our dad's grave. Gosh, I don't even think he wasn't at the original when my dad passed away. I think that this was the first time he had ever been there and it was just a few years ago that I took him. So I mean, and it was really a cool experience to go there with my brother, his son not my mom's son, but because they had married later but yeah, that was a cool experience. So it's like we talked about. I mean, it's kind of going back into these places and maybe making some new memories. And yeah, some newer, fresher memories that take a different spin on, because it was just too painful for me to do and I really honestly and this is funny because I don't like going in that area I always make this comment not the cemetery itself, but the town. I say, oh, we're going into this area, let's hold our breath, because we don't want any of the bad in. So I hardly ever revisit that area. It's not a fun place for me to be. So that's funny that I'm saying that, because if I would have taken that house, that's where I would have lived for the rest of my life, so I'm glad that.

Speaker 2: 53:17

Yeah, it would be reminders. Right, you can't escape from that and I think that that's for me. That's what happened. I needed to be taken out of that environment so I can grow into me and not be stuck into what I was Like. I have a lot of people from high I don't go to reunions either and I have a lot of people who are in the same house or are in the same neighborhood or we lived in a very large like. Our county was large, so chances are you don't have to know even somebody in your own class or whatever your freshman or whatever class. But yeah, I mean, for me it was being taken out of that environment to allow me to grow up, versus being stuck in that. So I know like if I. So here's a good example when we got married, my husband and I we moved. He was stationed into Nebraska and I thought, oh my God, this is culture. I go from Trenton, new Jersey, to rolling hills, farmland, stuff like that and I spent I think we were there six years and it was six years out of the environment that I had grown up in. So I got a taste of that. So then when we got stationed back into New Jersey, because my son had a lot of medical, so we went to the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. It was like going back into that environment again, where you're trying to fit in, where you're trying to figure yourself out, and I'm like an adult and like that's really difficult to do. And it was more difficult then to go into those other neighborhoods or maybe I drove by or did something. It was really difficult then because I didn't want my kids to be exposed to I mean, they're good people there, don't get me wrong but for me, expose them to my memories. Or I didn't want my memories to start taking over after I'd worked so hard to kind of separate myself. But yeah, it's hard to you know my whole entire. Like I said, the city is so big and it's changing. You know what I mean? It's where there were stores, there's something different. Where there was this, there's something different. But I could never live into my area either because until you can separate yourself, I feel like you're constantly battling at the age you were in that environment and you can't grow.

Speaker 1: 56:03

Yeah, well, I grew up about a half an hour from where I live now. And it's far enough. It's a good distance, and I have to say that since I've lived in this area, I've done more growing up than. I've become who I am, and I never would have been able to become this person if I still lived there. And I know that for a fact.

Speaker 2: 56:27

Yeah, yeah, I feel the same exact way, and for me it was trying to fit in, like where I'm at now I don't need to fit in, I'm just who. I am, and so you know, at my adult age I don't need a ton of friends. I have my close friends and you know I'm content and happy. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love making new friends, but it's like you have those handful and that's really what you need and I just, yeah, you get into that environment and it's like I always, every time I go up, I feel like I'm always looking over my shoulder, always like, oh, I don't know how to fit in, even though we're all adults now. I get around the people that we're in high school with and I go back to that kid trying to fit in. But I shouldn't, because that's not where I was. I don't wanna go back to that time.

Speaker 1: 57:18

That's not where I wanna be, so yeah, I think that same with me.

Speaker 2: 57:23

It's like once I got out of that environment I grew and I've been growing, you know. So it's you know and it's continuation.

Speaker 1: 57:33

So it's a good place to visit, but not to live for very long periods of time.

Speaker 2: 57:39

Yeah, yeah, for sure, and when I visit, I'm very selective of where I go and whom I see.

Speaker 1: 57:46

Yeah, I'm the same way. Yeah, Well, Denise, I mean this has been a great episode and I think, honestly, this is a lot of stuff that people are not talking about, so this was interesting.

Speaker 2: 57:58

Yeah, yeah, I think, so I agree.

Speaker 1: 58:01

And I really wanna thank you for writing your book, because you know I mean that just takes it to a whole nother level. Where you're putting it out there it's. You know we're talking about it. We write things down and now you're sharing it. We're sharing it for other people to read and hear and be able to maybe help their lives as well, because that's why we do this. It's not just to tell our story, not to tell on other people, but for it to go out into the world and for other people to know that they're not alone, that you know these thoughts, these feelings, these things that we're talking about I know that many, many people out there are relating with. So we're putting it out there for you and I hope that it helps and changes somebody and just go ahead and spread the word about Real Talk with Tina and Anne and I really appreciate Denise Bard coming on every now and then and she's going to continue to help us out here at Real Talk. So I just wanna thank you guys for listening, thank you so much from the bottom of our hearts here at Real Talk and we'll see you next time. Music.