Joy and Pain and the Fear of Moving Forward

Speaker 1: 0:08

Welcome to Real Talk. I am Tina and I am Ann.

Speaker 2: 0:13

This is part two of Joy in Pain Can Coexist, and if you have not heard part one, I would highly recommend that you go back and listen to it, because it is so much great content it really ties into this part two. So please go back and listen. And here is part two. It is knowing for sure you are going to hurt, but in a different, more productive way. It is what we talked about the pain and the joy living together instead of just living in the pain or only letting the pain in.

Speaker 1: 0:45

Yes, it is like having peace in the middle of pain. You can think they are opposite, but they can and do coexist simultaneously.

Speaker 2: 0:55

You had such a miraculous transformation. I mean, mine was well, it was kind of both. There was a moment in time that I remember waking up and I said that I am sick and tired of being sick and tired. And I never went back to being that person. But since that moment it has been such a gradual climb. It has taken me at least 20 years to get here. It is a really long uphill climb.

Speaker 1: 1:24

Yeah, I can totally relate to that, and I am not where I want to fully be yet either. Sometimes, when I was doing the trail, I remember thinking, oh, I don't want to do the hard work Like why didn't I just take a boat so I could see the coastline again? You know, yeah, the helicopter, like give me just the gorgeous view without the work. It is exhausting. But you know what I did and this is what you can do too. You can pause, fuel up with food or water, a little rest, a pep talk, whatever it is, and then you got to get back up and you keep going. I think the trick is that you don't stay in one hard place too long. You have to find a way through and you have to remember that end goal.

Speaker 2: 2:07

Yeah, you know, I often say you know there is nothing wrong with sitting in it for a minute, but then you do have to move and try to figure out how to get off that cliff, I guess, or that ledge. I mean, you showed me what it was like on that ledge. Can you describe it for our listeners?

Speaker 1: 2:25

So the truth is, when I actually hiked the section of the Kalalao Trail called Crawler's Ledge, you could see it from about a mile away. You're on the other side, you're on a switchback trail, so you're kind of going like up and down and back and forth. And when I first saw it from a distance it looked even slimmer than the rest of the trail that we had been hiking and I started sobbing. And we're hiking this trail as a tropical storm is coming in. But what I realized is once I got to that ledge the whole trail was narrow and meant to trip you, make you, slip, break you. So by the time I got to that ledge it wasn't as scary because it was no more narrow than the rest of the trail. I could see it more clearly. I had a better view of that section now and I wasn't as afraid and I knew this was the only way I couldn't turn around because my backpack would have literally knocked me off the ledge to my depth. So I had to hold on through that wind we were in about 65 mile per hour winds and just kind of became one with Mother Nature and slowly but surely made my way across it.

Speaker 2: 3:34

And that's how I picture doing life. I mean, we have to get on that ledge and feel the fear and the pain in our ankles which you went through, and in our hearts to get to the end of that trail, because at the end of that trail is on the other side of the pain. That is the only way there, though.

Speaker 1: 3:54

The only way there is through. That is absolutely true.

Speaker 2: 3:58

I have stopped myself from feeling so much so many times in my life, but I don't do that anymore. I in fact feel all the feels all at the same time. In most situations, I feel the loss of the situation and the joy Same.

Speaker 1: 4:19

I am a big feeler and so there is no middle ground for me. I'm all in. I'm either all sad, all mad, all happy, all joyous, whatever the feelings are, and all big and all at the same time. So I can completely relate. And one of the things I don't think I've mentioned much is that my friend that I went with on the trail we are different personalities and so that was another thing that was challenging is because I'm trying to hold things in, to not be too extra, and she's trying to be a little extra because she's not one to show much feeling at all. And it was a little bit of a clash and it's hard because we're both trying, I think, to. And I think, conversely, look what happens when you meet the needs in a way that speaks to each individual person. You know the way that you met your son's needs, because you understood what it was that his body was craving. I think that's so awesome.

Speaker 2: 9:11

We're supposed to be in relationship. I mean, that's how we were made. I am so proud of where you have come, where you and I have come, and that we can talk about this stuff. You know, I never talked and shared with anyone for decades. I was always the quiet one in the room. If you can believe that.

Speaker 1: 9:31

No, I'd say it's because I know you. I'm like no, that would be like me saying the same thing. I don't think anyone would believe that. I know. That's the best way.

Speaker 2: 9:41

I know it's just absolutely crazy, but I was sent to a counselor after my dad died for less than a year. Because of every single time she talked to me, I would not talk to her. I mean, I was just like you're taking me to this counselor, I'm not talking to them. So I never spoke. The only thing I said. One day I walked in and I said I'm going to run away. I was 12 and she just made me promise that I wouldn't and I was like, all right, okay, whatever. But of course I did, and that's another podcast. But I found myself wanting so badly to let the good in, to let love in, and well, I am the most blessed that I'm letting all of it in and talking about it and I feel so empowered. It's like once you start to let in the pain and, most importantly, the joy, and you start allowing yourself to share and believing in yourself, you know half of why I didn't want to share was I thought my truth was not reality and I had so much to hide. I felt that I did. I thought that I had so many secrets that secrets can kill a person internally and I lived in a house that was crazy making. I was told what was happening was not happening and I heard this quote on Bealloc Breakdown. It's a podcast with mine, bealloc. If you know who she is, she's Blossom, big Bang Theory and recently Jeopardy, and I've always been a fan. But I listened to her podcast a lot of times on mental health and she is a doctorate in neuroscience. Her most recent guest was David Rico I think was how they said it, but he's a psychotherapist who has written many books on childhood trauma and their topic was don't bring childhood wounds into adult relationships, and it's pretty profound. He's an author of 20 plus books. He's been on. He's been around a minute, so there is so much in this book that I've been reading. One thing that is talked about is everyone you meet. You are meeting everyone who's ever hurt them. I mean that is so profound.

Speaker 1: 12:04

Yeah, I need to take that in. Does it mean because of how they act and react?

Speaker 2: 12:11

Well, one of the things that they said was and I've really never thought about this that the deprivation and this is a quote from the book how to Be an Adult in Relationships the Five Keys to Mindful Loving, by David Rico, the deprivation of fulfillment from childhood is recorded in every cell of our bodies. I mean, think about that. It's what the deprivation of fulfillment from childhood is recorded in every cell of our bodies.

Speaker 1: 12:51

I think the book the Body Keeps the Score talks about that as well. Honestly, it gives me hope about and I don't know enough about this, except this very sentence that I'll speak about epigenetics, where you can alter your genes, alter your DNA. I feel like it gives me some hope for that, because if they can be etched into you from life okay, from everyone you've ever met that's hurt you, then surely they can be a different way. If that makes sense, we can maybe heal them, restore them, repair them, make them different.

Speaker 2: 13:35

That's just such an amazing concept. I mean I can't imagine being able to just change your cells and what's going on internally since all the damage was done. I know that you can carve new lines, I guess, or in your brain, as your brain creates a new thought. It takes so many times that you have to make that thought go in a certain path for you to have a different way of thinking, because your brain automatically goes a certain way every single time the thought begins. I know that you can create a new path in your brain. So there has to be truth in being able to change more than just your brain, I would think. I mean it's like Tina, when you got off that trail, you were different. I mean we actually can get ourselves to the point where we feel different and then, all of a sudden, what felt like turmoil within us is peace. Maybe we just feel free. I mean how amazing is that to be free to share, free to express, free to feel what really happened instead of someone else's truth, like I talked about earlier, free to deny what is told to you, just free to be. I mean, give yourself permission to do all that and don't allow people to take that away. I mean it's amazing what we can do when we start changing. I think one of the hardest things is also mentioned on that podcast and in the book is what we just talked about. It's starting I mean just getting started can bring up a lot of fear. He wrote in the book all prospects of change, even for the better, represent a threat. So that is so profound to me.

Speaker 1: 15:36

Yeah, that's really good and I think that's even not just with your own mental health, but just life in general. I mean, from having to have a hard conversation with your neighbor to whatever I guess else it could be. You know anything in a school, if you have to talk about something with a teacher or principal, anything involving your kids, I mean, yeah, I can see that because the change can also, even though it can be better, can also feel threatening at the same time.

Speaker 2: 16:15

Yeah, change is change right? Change is something that we are not familiar, and I've always said sometimes staying stuck is easier than facing the fear itself.

Speaker 1: 16:28

It's kind of like staying in your comfort zone.

Speaker 2: 16:31

Yeah, yeah, I mean when I worked in the jail I cannot tell you how many women I sat across and they changed and they were and it kind of became their own comfort zone within the jail system, where they felt like this piece within that building and they were good, they were like you know. They became literally a changed person. They walked out that door and I can even remember one time I was sitting in the parking lot and we were waiting for one of the ladies who had just gotten released. She was going to get on our car and her sugar daddy pulled up just about next to us. I watched her look at her past and look at us and she made the decision to get in his car, for whatever reason, and it could have been fear, it could have been, you know, afraid what he might do if she left that lifestyle. But it could have been just that what we're talking about here. I mean, sometimes it is. She didn't know what she was getting into if she got in the car with us, but she knew what she was getting into, even though it was horrible and maybe the worst situation in the world. She knew it and it was, it was familiar with her, and so she. Actually she chose to get in there instead of come with us into this new lifestyle, which she had no idea what she was getting into at all.

Speaker 1: 18:06

Gosh that is. That is just something that is really scary to hear can happen.

Speaker 2: 18:14

We don't really think of it that visually. You know that that's such a visual. Yeah, that's definitely but we all make those choices, I think, all day long. In some respects, I mean, it could be like you said it could be something really small to something really major, life changing. And here we are at a cross, a fork in the road, and we're looking at this side. And we're looking at this side, and how many times I know I've chosen many, many times, to just stay on the road that I'm going, instead of take that new road or get on that trail, Like you did, and just continue on that path, because it's the one that I know.

Speaker 1: 18:57

Yeah, I feel like more so for me. I've gone the opposite direction. You know, if I was in, say, a bad relationship in high school, I never dated the same person twice. I guess I always felt like when it was over it was over for a reason. No, no need to look back. I'm not one to look back and I feel like I've been the opposite of some of the examples. And that's okay, you know, not saying again one's right or wrong, but I'm typically the one that will go the opposite direction.

Speaker 2: 19:33

I mean if you sense or you know in your heart that the direction that you're going is not a good one and you go the opposite way. Kudos, I mean seriously, that's amazing trait that you can do that. I have gotten myself in the absolute worst situations because I stayed stuck and it. You know, it's really sad that it took me this long, but it everybody's journey is what they need to go through in order to get your body.

Speaker 1: 20:11

Just going to say I know sad and hard, but yet I look at you and think wow, proud and determined, and look how far you've come.

Speaker 2: 20:20

You know, I really appreciate that because even you know, going all the way back to the very beginning of the podcast, talking about my son who was so down on himself and he looked at himself so with such the hardest of eyes because he just he doesn't appreciate who he is right now and he's got so much good in him. But there was a time in a lot of my life where you just pointed out all the good part of it and I was determined and I was. You know, all that was good was in me, but I could only feel the negative and the and all the bad, all the bad but not the good, and it really did keep me where I was. And you know what this is really important. The people around you are really important, because one day I was standing across from my biological mom and she made a lot of bad choices in her life and a lot of the things she said to me made me believe that I was not worth it, that I wasn't good. And you know, even when I went to college she said you know, people in our family don't go to college and there was never that believing in me kind of thing. So I think when you don't have somebody to believe in you, who's supposed to believe in you? You kind of feel it's kind of hard to find it within yourself.

Speaker 1: 22:01

Yeah, I can see that for sure. It kind of blows my mind because being a mom and you're a mom and I can't I don't know what it's like to have a mom that treated her kids the way that you've described. So you know that's hard for me to. I don't understand it, you know. And now you can't see the damage being done.

Speaker 2: 22:27

Well, you know, I've shared how I was conceived in rape and I understand that she's got a stigma, there's this thing attached to me and but I mean it goes deep where there was a lot else going on with her besides just what the relationship that we had, the fact that I was genetically her daughter but that was where it kind of ended and I wanted more than that. But you know, I always look back and because I've got adopted kids and I've adopted my grandkids and I can never be in her spot and look at one of my children and say the things that she has to me and say, you know, you're just a rape to me and she didn't even want me at her funeral or to know about it when she died and it's all kind of a bad thing. But you know what it's done. It's made me never to be like that. The parents that I have had. That's what it's done. It's made me be the mom that I am and and accept them right where they are, love them where they are and always keep pushing forward with them. I will always love them, no matter what, for who they are.

Speaker 1: 23:48

I think that is just incredible and you really are a testament to that. You're not just saying that, you actually live and breathe by that. And I think you're amazing, and your family too.

Speaker 2: 24:00

Yeah Well, I don't know God's. You know you have to go through the pain to get to the joy, and that's exactly what we're talking about here and that's what I went through. And, even though you have gone the opposite in a lot of ways, when you've sensed that this is the wrong direction, you've gone the opposite way. But I know you and I know that you've gone through a lot of pain and you are on the other side of it in a lot of ways. But we both I mean I'll tell you what we don't know what tomorrow brings. We don't know how much pain or joy or both that we're going to find. You know, in the podcast that I was talking about, jonathan asked a question. He's the co-host of Mayim. He's friend or significant other, whatever they are. They never really define the relationship. But he said how do you navigate forward when you have to face something so scary? I mean that is a podcast and a half right there for us. I mean that's something that we could talk about another day. But the visual I have in my head at that moment when they were talking about it, is you, tina. I mean it's you, it's you, it's you. It's you on the other side of that cliff and you are on the sides of your feet, ankles bent in in pain, on your tippy toes, just about, and you are literally on that cliff. And if you stop, and if you hesitate, and if you don't keep going and you stop short, you're going down. I mean, you're not. You are not going to break free of that fear. So hiding behind the fear is not where we want to be.

Speaker 1: 25:52

No, and on this trip it showed me that my fear can be my biggest supporter, not my hurdle. My fear is what propelled me forward and it felt so freeing to get to the other side.

Speaker 2: 26:09

Those are two completely different concepts, and we don't want to be hiding behind the fear and we want to use our fear to propel us. I think that that's incredible.

Speaker 1: 26:20

Well, let me tell you if I can do it, so can you.

Speaker 2: 26:24

Amen, sister, all right. Well, we're just going to wrap it up here, unless there's anything else you want to say.

Speaker 1: 26:34

I think I think we covered so much and just always want to say thank you to each and every one of you who listen. We hope you get something out of our podcast. We hope that it propels you to make a positive change, one step in the right direction. I kept telling myself on my trail I'm one step closer, I'm one step closer, and I literally said it out loud. I'm sure my friend was irritated hearing me say it so much, but it helped me tremendously. I love that.

Speaker 2: 27:02

I love it because that's I mean, that's what we do, that's what I do all the time in my head and I just, even if it's just an inch, Tina, you know what I'm so proud of you.

Speaker 1: 27:15

Well, thank you, I'm proud of you.

Speaker 2: 27:20

I love you, my friend.

Speaker 1: 27:22

I love you too. Thank you all for listening, and we'll see you next time, all right?