Fear and hate: Exploring the True Opposite of Love and its many Layers

Speaker 1: 0:09

Last weekend, episode thirty five, tina and I had a pretty interesting discussion on love, the levels of love, rock paper scissors debate on which emotion would win love or fear. With both of these emotions so strong, I think love beats out fear. But we had, like I said, a pretty interesting discussion that Continues into episode thirty six. So I would give it a listen if I were you, because the discussion gets into where I at the end state how love mixed with fear and abuse and many other of life's experiences actually taint love or dilutes it. So what we are experiencing is not really love at all, but a very watered down version, and to experience a pure love is pretty difficult on this earth, and I said the only time that I think I have experienced true love. Well, you'll have to listen and find out. But episode thirty five is the beginning of this. Now here is episode thirty six, part two of rock paper scissors love, hate, fear. When I was a preacher in the jail system, I held hands with women who actually Some committed murder, some are prostitutes and some did, you know, some pretty horrific things. But they were in a desperate. They were in desperation, they were in pain, they were very hurting people. They saw themselves for what they did Instead of who they were, and define themselves by an action in a moment in time instead of who they really were, or did things because of their fears of growth. Or did things because they were defined young that they were nothing. There are a lot of fears to uncover to see yourself is that beautiful person instead of what others define you as fear. Often times can be the limitations that others have put on us, that have put on you this is so powerful and keep going. I think, when I look at some of the people who put the greatest fears in me, they were the people who were supposed to love me the most. I think the two are completely opposite, more than love and hate, because, when you think about it, the people who loved you the most in your house, your first relationships, can create the most fears and then hate can come from that. But I think fear and love are so connected.

Speaker 2: 2:40

Yes, I can see that.

Speaker 1: 2:44

There is a book, a child called it I don't know if you've ever heard of it by David, but David Pelzer he's. There's like three or four books by him. I mean, he's really a great author, but it is a book about his childhood and the first one that ever came out is was called, is called a child called it, and it has hit me right where I live, so much so that I felt his fear to my core and I also wanted to help him. There was that side of me, but it reminded me of some of the people who have hurt me and now. Fear can be introduced into a child's life before love was even set in. Being abused so young, before I was adopted, having a surgery as a young baby where I knew that I wouldn't even be able to have kids, you know it was a fear in me that was instilled so young. I think something like that stays with you. The most loving family might be able to love the fear out of you, but I'm not sure. I had a somewhat good family that adopted me when I was young until my dad passed away and then so much changed that I think the fear just flooded back because of how things were handled. The way my adopted mom handled things caused my fears of women to be enhanced so greatly to a paralyzing fear. And I did not really tell teachers or anybody because I was afraid of what they would say, what they would think or if anybody was even noticing. I think maybe today schools might have picked up on that. I've talked about before how my mom got rid of my parents and my parents. I've talked about before how my mom got rid of my sister to the system after my dad died. Well, the fears went beyond. Where did my sister go? But also, it was a secret and I was the one holding that secret and I was afraid people would notice at school that my sister was no longer there. And what do I say? What was also weird? Have you ever noticed how strange it is that life just picks up after a tragedy and people just go on with their lives as if it didn't even happen?

Speaker 2: 4:58

Yeah, you know, in some of the things I've experienced in terms of loss and pain Maybe not so much related to fear, but just with loss and pain that the world keeps going and I used to be really frustrated by it, like why can't everything and everyone just stop? Because I need to process this and I can't, in this distracting, loud world where everything just keeps going, can't everyone give me a moment of silence? And then it I realized that you know what? It's a good thing that the world keeps going, because eventually you see light again and you're able to continue on with your purpose. It keeps you going as much as you want it to stop. It's a good thing it keeps going.

Speaker 1: 5:47

Well, it always takes me back to the very day that my dad died and then the next day I got up to go to school and my aunt just looked at me and she was like, what are you doing? And I said I'm going to school now. I don't know. I think it was my shock and but since then and I've had losses and all kinds of tragedies different things have happened and in your shock, and I can remember waking up and looking like looking out a window and just watching the world go on and the days, days, eyes of just you know, being hit by whatever it is. It just happened and you're looking at the world go by and you're just like it. All just needs to stop and recognize that this just happened. I just need everybody to just recognize that this happened, can relate. It's just this, just the strangest thing.

Speaker 2: 6:49

I think that's why I've had to shift my perspective about it, because the whole world can't stop. If you think about it exactly, if the world stopped every time someone in this world needed it to, we would be constantly at a standstill. That's the conclusion I came to.

Speaker 1: 7:06

Yeah, yeah and it's I don't know. I mean, I guess I don't really want that to happen, but it's just for like that moment and time I get it I just want that you want that person's debt, that person's life before they died or whatever to just be honored, and I guess that that's what we do when we go to a funeral, or but it just I don't know it. Just I feel like if I go on that it will not be honoring them, but that's the exact opposite of what we should be doing. We should be going on with our Days in our lives and really and that is it really is honoring them, because that's what they would want. There is so much more that I could add to the fear that was in my house, but want to focus more On how love overpowered fear for me, because that's really important. I learned what real love is when my kids looked at me in the eyes, when they looked at me with the love that I've never felt before, no strings, nothing but looking at me with a hope of wanting me to love them and take care of them, and that connection that only nambillical cord can create. But in my case it was a connection of the heart. When I held my kids, I knew they were mine, even though it took me for a while to actually adopt them. But when I think of love in that sense, it's stronger than any fear and it melts my fears. If fear can melt love, I think love wins in the game of rock, paper, scissors. How, or I guess I should say in the game of love, fear and hate, how would that go other than love melts fear?

Speaker 2: 8:54

Well, I think that's a beautiful illustration of it, and I to am partially adopted, I should say. My dad adopted me when I was young, and I learned at a young age that you don't have to be blood to feel like family and to feel love. So I can totally relate to that. All I wanted was a dad, and then I got one several years later. So I I do think that the love melted the fear, but I do think I still had some issues with men because of not having a dad for a certain amount of years and him not wanting to be involved. You know the birth father, and today, though, we've worked hard to get to a good place, a healthy place in our relationship. So, yeah, I do think love melts fear. I just think it's so seasonal, kind of like friendships are seasonal. I think the one that trumps the other is seasonal, but I guess if I had to pick a clear winner, I'm going to have to go and say love too, because I think love has. What pulled me out of my fear, like the love that I know my husband has for me has really helped me to cope with. Having these mice a year ago in our house really just triggered something within me, and I still have a similar response to other things, like when we got water in our basement. It you know it was. It was a paralyzing type of fear, and it was because I didn't know what the cause was. I didn't know how expensive it was going to be to fix. And even when one of my kids was pretty sick recently, I was paralyzed again. I was really upset that well, of all the symptoms he has, why does he have to have this one that takes so much longer to go away than any of the other ones? And the fear of are we all going to get it and are we all going to have to stay home for X amount of time? And so it's been something that I've noticed has been continuing to kind of cripple me. But what I will say is I start to come out of it sooner and I still feel that love and support from my children and my husband. So that's why I would say love is greater.

Speaker 1: 11:19

You know, I have this visual on my head of I guess it could almost be like a board game, where there's a fear and you're just stuck and you're not moving, like maybe it's not even your turn or you get sent to jail, like Monopoly, I don't know, but you're completely just paralyzed in fear and you're not able to move. And then you roll a little bit of love and you can take two steps and then you're paralyzed again and you can't move. But then you roll a five and then you can move five. But you know, what you don't do is you really don't move backwards, you just keep, you just continue to move forward. So in that sense I see it as, hey, you know, our fears keep us stuck and that things that are stuck really don't have that much power, they really don't have much behind it, because it can't propel us forward. I mean, in a way it does, because then we find it within ourselves to move forward in some way. But the actual fear doesn't move us forward, it's something within ourselves that moves us forward, and then I think the love is what moves us forward as well.

Speaker 2: 12:38

Yeah, I love how you walked us through. I'm actually closing my eyes right now picturing moving on a board game, and that I think that's something that'll stick with me. So thank you for that gift. I'm such a visual learner and I think that's so great, because at the core of our fear, I think, is that we need someone, something to diffuse it.

Speaker 1: 12:59

Absolutely, and sometimes it is just what's within us and we can find it within ourselves to roll that dice again and and move forward. Just take even a couple steps, and but that's all it takes for us to start propelling out of that fear and moving on.

Speaker 2: 13:19

Yes, I think we're all a lot stronger than we believe or realize that we are when it comes down to it. Because even going back to the mice in my house that just uncovered this deep rooted fear of a perpetrator in my home Okay, that's how it felt to me from some things from my past, even in my darkest fears, before my husband really realized like how bad this was really bothering me, I would have to just tell myself I wake up every morning about 45 minutes earlier than I normally would and search the entire house, every square inch of the house, and I would have to literally tell myself when I went to go down into the basement that, yes, you can do this, you are brave, you are capable and you can do this. But I remember every time before I would open that door and have my hand on the door knob and I'd have to give myself a pep talk and I ended up being able to go down there every single time. So I'm hoping I'm farther than that now, you know, but honestly, I don't really know. I don't really know. I just think. I think it takes a lot of time to heal from whatever it is you know pain, loss, fear, grief, abuse, whatever it is. It just takes a really long time. So keep giving yourself grace and keep giving yourself those pep talks. There's something powerful about speaking the words out loud.

Speaker 1: 14:42

You know and I do agree with that for sure, speaking it out loud the other part of fear is the people who can sense it. They can either be an abuser and prey on you to abuse to abuse you as well, or they can be someone who wants to love you. So we can talk about that too. Another episode, because that really is a real thing. This one is heavy enough, I think, what we've already talked about, but I have to say there is nothing worse than seeing fear in your own kids eyes. I always stay close to my kids when we are out doing things and they all have so many fears. But my one son, runs right into my arms when he's and he's so afraid he screams and just there I am. I mean it's just like it's the scariest thing, but it's the most awesome thing at the same time, and I'm glad that he still does it. He just says ma, and he looks for me. I mean I'm just glad that I'm standing there. My daughter does not go far from us either and always looks back to make sure that we're always there. I mean it is so critical that we have people who we love that are so close when we are afraid. Imagine not having anyone as a child you can latch on to in love and trust when you are the most fearful. I mean, I've never really thought about that before.

Speaker 2: 16:20

Yeah, that's powerful. Everybody needs that, I think, no matter your age you need that, but for sure, when you're younger, absolutely I think it's a gift to be a parent or a caregiver, or to love younger children, that when you are that trusted, caring, safe person for them because that is so important they need to know where they're safe. And, as we've been talking about this, it reminded me one of my favorite authors. She is Trisha Lott-Williford. She's written several books. Her first book stemmed from grief and pain when she lost her husband suddenly in a very young age, and she has two young kids. So she, though, has been working for the last decade quietly on a book called you Are Safe Now Survivors Guide to Listening to your Gut, healing from Abuse and Living in Freedom, and she said she's not going to be silent anymore. She had some public trauma, and then there was private trauma that she held onto quietly, and a concurrent part of her story that she just didn't talk about for a long, long time, but she didn't realize she was being manipulated, she didn't realize the signs, she didn't know the cycle of abuse and all of these things, and so she said she won't be quiet anymore and, coming in 2024, there's going to be the resource released you Are Safe Now a Survivors Guide to Listening to your Gut, healing from Abuse, living in Freedom. And she's written it with a co-author who is a much beloved and often mentioned expert therapist, whose name is Jaina, because it rhymes with Dana, so I'm trying to make sure that I got it right. I think it's Jaina Richardson and she has really helped her write through the trauma and has written through the treatment. So I wanted to throw that resource out to look for in 2024 because I think it really closely ties in with this and I have every single thing that Trisha Lott-Willifert has written and I will absolutely add this resource to my collection of books.

Speaker 1: 18:24

You know I'm going to be looking for that book. That is. That sounds so good, doesn't it? It really does. I definitely it'll be on my list to either read or listen, because I do both. I have all the Love it, yeah. Now I just want to talk a little bit more about my kids and their fear, because I, whenever they are in fear, I don't want to go far. I know they have to figure it out on their own, like we talked about a little bit earlier, but I'm not that ready for that. I'm just I. I have older kids and I still want to be there for them. I have a 28 year old that still calls me when she's having a hard time and I'm glad that I'm there for her. You know, I want to be there. That's what we do. That's what we do. That's what's treasure.

Speaker 2: 19:19

Yes, because no matter your age, you're always going to need your mom and your dad. You're always going to need them for something, either an ear to listen, a piece of advice. Bail me out of this. I can't pay this car payment this month. I don't know Whatever it is. I think that it's so important that we're there for them.

Speaker 1: 19:38

You know why. I know love is stronger. There is nothing like my child's eyes full of love looking at me, like I talked about earlier. I mean it's just nothing. My one son drew a picture of his family for school and he had him and me standing right next to each other. You know, that's how I want him to feel. I'm right there for him and he feels nothing but love. And he's looking up at me, not the complications of love and fear at the same time, because when you look at a parent you should see love without fear. But love, love wins every single time when that other stuff is not mixed in. And I think where we get a little confused about love and its strength or power is because there's so much that's mixed in with love. It's just not a pure love. It's that purity of love that's the stronger of the between love and fear. But when you start mixing all that other stuff in, it gets diluted and it doesn't even. It's not even really love anymore.

Speaker 2: 20:51

That is some deep, deep stuff, ann. That's a lot to process and I do think you're right. You know, I read something recently that on hard days or in hard seasons and this came from ParentQ that family rhythms help to kind of keep your kids centered on what is true, like how much you love them, how brave and strong they are, that they have a place to belong, and so I think that's an important part of building family's connection, starting with your own rhythm. So I think earlier on you had mentioned something about you went back to school after your dad died, and whether people think that's right or wrong, I think what I'm learning, and what this ParentQ app has also kind of been talking about recently, is that kids need to know that even when life is hard, there will still be showers and chores and tacos on Tuesday you see what it's saying there Like you're still going to have some of the same family rhythms, because that's what keeps you being able to move forward. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:48

Yeah, I mean, when our cat died, we took a moment and I'll tell you, she was a huge part of our family. She just wasn't the cat laying on the floor. I mean, she was involved in our life and all of us deeply, deeply loved her. And when we had Mimi pass away one of their grandparents, what we did in both of those situations was we took the moment and we all grieved. And then we went somewhere and we did something as a family and we went to an animal farm and we got to pet animals and love on animals and it was like an animal therapeutic time and it was like a transition back to life. So I think we all need that moment in death or loss, but then we need that transition back to life. Oh, that's beautiful, yes, well, tina, I think that we can wrap it up there. I really love sharing some of our most deepest things on here with each other and with our listeners. I'm glad that we get to do this together.

Speaker 2: 23:04

I am too. It's always a joy and an honor, and for everyone taking the journey with us. Thank you. This is Real Talk with Tina and Anne, and we will see you next week.