Every Step Forward is worth Celebrating

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Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.

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I am Anne and we have a guest today.

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Many of you might recognize her.

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Denise Bard has been on many times.

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It's been a while, though.

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She has been out promoting her book 30 Second Moments and a Woman who Raised Me.

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She has been speaking and doing all the things.

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She had a life of fear and she is working hard to overcome and to help others.

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Denise, you and I both know what it's like to live our lives as if we are afraid of pretty much everything.

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True, to give just a little bit of a backstory, I had several times in my life, very young, had the wind knocked out of me.

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Fear entered me before I was even school age.

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So I mean, that really affects you.

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Being in foster care young and adopted young, you know that really affects somebody, but I think that that can affect anybody at any age.

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I believe you can sense when something is not right, when the adults in the room are scared.

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The kids can pick up on that, and I was adopted as a baby, but it was a little bit strange of a situation.

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It was somewhat normal until my dad passed away, even though, you know, I lived in a house where my mom was abusing my sister next door to me in her bedroom all every night just about.

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And you know that can really affect a person when you're listening to somebody else being abused in the next room.

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Because I was a child when all that happened, I think that that put a fear in me that I can't describe.

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I was afraid of success.

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I was doing great at the time.

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I was at the top of my game in everything I'm talking popularity, fun, swimming, friends you know just everything.

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I was just at the top of my game and I think that that brings a fear in someone that you just can't let go of when everything bad happens in an instant when everything is going really good in your life.

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Someone recently said to me how did you smile after your dad died?

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Because I was so young.

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And I said I faked being happy most of my school years, being happy most of my school years.

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You know when you realize that young, that things can change so abruptly on a dime, like one moment you are fine and the next moment you no longer have a dad and the next moment your mom is giving your sister to the system and bam, you're on this six week trip across the country.

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We visited, like almost every state in the United States, and I never knew what hotel room we were going to be staying in or where we were going to land next, and it was really kind of a scary situation.

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You would think that people would be like, oh, that sounds like a great vacation, but I didn't.

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And it felt like my mom was on the run.

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And she was on the run and I don't really want to go into all of that right now, but it was because of a negative situation that she was on the run.

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But looking back, you know no wonder I was afraid.

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Yeah, I think I spent the beginning of life exactly the same way.

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Uncertainties made you afraid.

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You didn't.

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My backstory of mine, too, is that I was born to two drug addicts.

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When I spent my childhood with my mother, who became a cocaine addict, and so the uncertainty there.

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Where, unfortunately, things happened to me, where there was a lot of abuse, the worst abuse taken, you never knew where you were going to go, what was going to happen.

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So you, you do live on eggshells, which creates that fear.

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And then you know the trust of other people.

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You, you're afraid to trust people because you don't know.

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You know number one you don't know if they're safe.

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And number two, if you do feel that they're safe, you don't know how long they're going to be there.

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So you don't know what you're going to do.

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And as a kid and a child growing up in that there's different things, coping that I went through with the fear of abandonment, very afraid of my gosh absolutely yes, and you know, and it's funny because even as an adult I have some of these issues that continue with the abandonment as an adult, where you logically know some of these things, you hold on to that fear and I have, I've like, held on to that, started therapy to hopefully you work on that even at an older age.

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But those things that you got into a routine of it becomes comfortable.

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I know that sounds kind of weird, but it's the comfort zone because that's where you know how to live.

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It's the fear of what.

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You don't know the good things, like you said, you know you are so afraid of something happening that you miss out on that joy because you know you're locked into the fear of the unknown.

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And I spent a good I mean well, I spent my whole childhood, even going through school.

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I know you said that.

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You know you were at the top of the game For me.

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I never felt that way.

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I was always afraid to show what was happening at home, that I was.

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I had two separate lives.

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I lived the life of fear at home, with the unknown, navigating the everyday of walking on eggshells.

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I, you know I was physically abused, sexually abused, um, I guess you could say trafficked when I was younger, um, which again brings that fear, um, but you live on those eggshells at home.

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And then when I went to school, I was afraid to let anybody know what was going on at home.

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And you're trying really hard to fit in, but you're trying with that fear with you.

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So it's it, but it becomes so normal to you that you it sounds crazy to say that it was, like you said, a normal, but it's something you knew how to navigate versus something else.

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So you live truly.

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That's that's your identity.

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I hate to say that, that it was almost an identity because, like you, you put up the fake facade but really you were living in the identity of fear.

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Well, you know what's interesting is I said the top of my game, but it was a top of my game that I was used to, you know.

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I mean I think as a child I'd been through so much abuse and I had listened to so much abuse and you know, with my sister, that even when it was good, somebody else would have considered that bad.

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Oh yeah, you know what I mean.

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Oh, so that's what's really interesting to me, that I even think that that was that.

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What was the top of my game was my swimming.

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I did have friends.

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I was at the best I could possibly be which to some might not, because I was autistic and I still had verbal problems and academic issues and like all the things, but I was able to be my best self.

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And then the rug was ripped, you know, from under me when my dad passed away and then when my sister was given away.

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You know I can remember that day, so, like it just happened it is.

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It lives in me, yeah, and I was afraid to be bad after that.

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You were afraid that you were going to be put in there as well.

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Away was because of her behavior.

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It was really her.

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It had nothing to do with my sister.

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It had everything to do with this woman who was raising me.

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But my fear and I had already been adopted right, so I mean, I had already been in the system, so I knew, even though I was a baby at the time.

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I think that that's something that never leaves you.

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You always know when you've left your biological mom and you've been in other homes and then you're being put into another home.

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I just think that you, instinctively, you know it.

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Living in fear is something that I think that I did every single day, even though I was my best self, like I said.

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So that day, just to kind of talk about it a little bit and I don't really talk about it that much on the podcast, but just as a backstory you know, when my mom said to me that she's going to be going somewhere a relative's house for a short time, she said that to my sister you're going to be going for a short time, but she told me she's never coming back and you're not allowed to tell her.

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So what you want to know, I was only a few years older than her and we had both just gone through something so horrific with my dad, our dad passing away something so horrific with my dad, our dad, passing away, that I just I don't know.

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It's just something that I've never been able to shake Well, as a child, you don't know how to.

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I don't think we can comprehend and to really process something like that, along with not just the death, but that situation that you were in.

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I I often think of every and you and I have talked and I know about your story and it's something that's interesting.

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Every time like I hear that, I think of a cousin of mine who is she's about six, seven years older than me and she was the only person in my family that knew not knew what was happening, but knew something bad was happening.

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And I've had people say, well, why didn't she do anything?

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I'm like, how can you do something when you're a child yourself?

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Regardless, you're only a couple years older.

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What can you do?

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You are in a position.

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You feel so helpless.

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Yes, and I and I felt the same and my cousin has said that to me and I'm like you know, and I don't know if she said that one, because it's true, but also maybe there is some guilt, like, should I've done something?

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And I always say there is nothing.

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You could have done Nothing.

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I've never.

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I can't take that.

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I appreciate that at the times that she could, she looked after me because you know that was a genuine thing.

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But as a child, expecting you to do something, I can't.

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I don't know if in my position, I would have done anything different.

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I don't think I could because I was afraid.

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Well, we were kids, you know, and that's a thing, but I think that I owned a lot of what my mom was doing, you know, and and even in conversations that I've had with my sister, many, many years later, unfortunately I think that because you know of the things that she went through and I don't blame her.

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I think that because you know of the things that she went through, I don't blame her.

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I think that she kind of, you know, wrapped me in the whole package and you know I was a part of it.

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So, but I have never.

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In fact, when I do my podcast, her picture that she drew me of us being sisters is behind me behind my green screen here.

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I've got things around my house that are a memory of her.

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I've got a whole thing of the two of us, different pictures of us, because it's like this podcast to me is in honor of our relationship as kids and in memory of who we could have been.

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You know what I wish that we could have been.

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I'm constantly doing this for her, because you know why?

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Because we didn't have a voice when we were kids and I want us and I wanted her to have a voice, and so that was just really important to me.

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One of the things that really stood out to me at that time, though, was that I was not allowed to tell.

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I was not allowed to tell, and when you're silenced, you know that puts a whole nother layer on it.

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You know, I felt that I was lying to the world, and I can remember being in the school gym the next, you know, school year, right after it had happened, because it was in the summertime, and then we were in the school gym the next, you know, school year, right after it had happened, because it was in the summertime, and then we were in the school gym, and it was seventh grade, and the teacher asked me how my sister was, because nobody was seeing her.

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You know, all of a sudden, my sister's not there anymore.

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How strange is that?

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I mean, I didn't answer because I couldn't answer.

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I didn't answer because I couldn't answer.

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I didn't want to lie, yeah, and I didn't know what to say, but I realized then that I had lost the voice that I had had.

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I mean, I didn't have a great one, because of being autistic on top of it, but the little bit of voice that I had was gone, and I really was mute for quite a while after that, so it was crazy how my fear came out.

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I talk about this in my speech and I think I talk about it in the book.

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Silence is a prison.

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You know you are silenced because you're trained to be silent.

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Yeah, the fear of silence, and it's interesting, I have all around me.

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I have pictures, and these are the pictures of the women I talk about in my book and they're the teachers and my counselor from a group home shelter.

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Half of them didn't know, they never did know.

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Um I call you, know.

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I always say that they were moments of connection, that they still helped me even though they didn't know.

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But I had this fear, even though they made me feel safe in moments.

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But I had this fear, even though they made me feel safe in moments.

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You are stuck like, stuck in fear, fear of losing them, fear of them not believing you, fear of you being told that, well, that's your fault anyway.

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I think that that does trap us, that gets us, puts us in this prison, because those bars represent the, the fears that are in you for each different thing.

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That's how I looked at it.

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It was like each bar represented why I'm afraid.

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And so I could see past that bar.

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I could not, for the life of me, say anything, but it was the idea of things happening, the anxieties that cause these fears too.

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You know, you don't know what to do.

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Like you said your sister, it was an anxiety of like I can't tell, like I'm anxious who's going to ask me?

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I started to almost pretend that my life at home was not the reality.

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Like a lot of relatability is how I can say I didn't go through the exact things you did.

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Right, but we can relate these feelings of fear, of anxieties.

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They are so relatable.

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When you were talking.

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I realized that when you feel like you've got this huge secret and you can't talk and tell anybody, I think that that was part of the reason that my muteness in that situation kind of it transferred into other areas of my life, you know.

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I mean when you've got something that's so heavy on you and you're not allowed to tell anybody, it silences you in that area.

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But I think that that silenced me period.

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You know, I had someone who knew my mom pretty well.

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That's another side of it.

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You know she was very well known in the community and I would say most people outside in the community would have said she was a great woman and so that's confusing.

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Yeah, because you've got all these people saying, oh, she's a really great person, but behind closed doors at home it was a different story.

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Yeah.

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And so I had to be silenced in that situation, because whenever I would tell, or if I would think about telling somebody, I just couldn't tell them really what was going on, because I honestly don't think that anybody would have believed me.

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Yeah.

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I felt the same and when she told me this woman told me that my mom loved me I was like I couldn't receive it, because there's just no way that she could have loved me the way I think that I love my kids.

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Yes.

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Yeah, how in the world could she have even thought that she loved me like her own kid?

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I don't, I don't know, because you don't, you just don't do that.

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You know, I've adopted all of my kids and I just don't understand what she did to a young eight-year-old child, my sister, and put on me as an 11-year-old, and I was never able to rid of that fear until the day she died.

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So that tells you what an influence that she had on me.

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Even if people want to say, oh well, you just made too much out of that, my body knew the moment she died that I was free.

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I feel the same way.

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I lived back and forth between my mother and my grandmother and a cycle of abuse was always there, walking on the eggshells, always afraid, never knowing what's going to trigger someone, how you know what's going to be the response to you.

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And my grandmother passed away a couple of years ago and it was funny, and I know this is kind of hard, because there were good times, um, entry school trips is what I can remember that people wondered how did you not cry?

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And I'm like because I got free.

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Now my mother's still living, but I don't talk to her, so there's a freedom there, um, but I want to say this you talked about how, um, you know, somebody said, oh, they loved you.

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I had the same experience where I tell you what I did not know love until I was 14 years old.

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14 years old, two things happened to me and again I talk about this in my book.

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I go into a little bit detail and I talk about this when I go and I speak to teachers because they were the ones who raised me my counselor at um.

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She was my caseworker and counselor at.

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My counselor at.

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She was my caseworker and counselor at the shelter group home that I was in and she is still in my life since I was 14.

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She has never left.

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She was the first person to teach me, to show me what genuine, genuine, unconditional love is.

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The first person who gave me a hug that I wasn't afraid of, that.

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I didn't have those fears inside of me that when she hugged me it felt like every fear, everything melted away and I was the safest I could possibly be.

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But she was the first person to help me understand what unconditional love was.

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So I understood at that moment I wasn't getting that at home, I didn't feel it at home, but it validated to me that I really wasn't getting that.

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And then another thing happened again that year with another teacher who said something to me.

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She introduced me to someone as her Denise.

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It wasn't what she literally meant, but it was just that simple moment.

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Those simple words connected with me and for the first time I felt wanted.

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You know, it helps to validate things and it helps to free you from a bit of the fear.

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But again, I was so trapped that even with the women who made the difference in my life, I still was not.

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I was so trapped that even with the women who made the difference in my life?

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I still was not.

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I was still afraid to say things.

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Well, when my mom actually passed away, I was in the room and the nurse was there and you know, normally the daughter goes and holds hands with their mom when they're passing away.

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I couldn't do that, I couldn't.

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Well, I was not a touchy, feely person anyway.

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I don't normally like touch people, it's just a thing.

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There's only probably a couple people in my cat, my animals that I really hold close to me.

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Yeah.

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Other than that I just don't touch people.

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And so she was obviously going to pass and the nurse was in the room and she noticed that I wasn't fulfilling that, you know.

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So she went up and she held my mom's hand and then she passed away.

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And then she's like well, do you need anything?

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And I was like no, I'm good.

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What do I need to do?

00:21:25.490 --> 00:21:26.958
Do I need to sign the papers?

00:21:26.958 --> 00:21:27.839
What do I need to do?

00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:32.817
And it was like bam, sign the papers, walked out.

00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:35.244
I have the same thing.

00:21:35.244 --> 00:21:43.287
Like I have that fear I get um, I almost vomit anytime my mother would touch me but I had to pretend that it still didn't bother me.

00:21:43.287 --> 00:21:49.405
But I and and I'm okay with, like I was never okay with hugs.

00:21:49.405 --> 00:22:00.686
I pretended that I liked them but I wasn't okay until I met michelle and she gave me that hug and then, like you said, there were certain people where you felt comfortable enough to do that.

00:22:00.686 --> 00:22:02.519
I don't know that I would have been able to.

00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:04.265
I wasn't there when my grandmother passed away.

00:22:04.265 --> 00:22:04.976
They called me.

00:22:04.976 --> 00:22:10.596
I was power of attorney while I was secondary and they couldn't get in touch with the first.

00:22:10.596 --> 00:22:15.385
So they called me and I remember just being so calm about it.

00:22:15.385 --> 00:22:18.179
It wasn't like like you weren't totally upset.

00:22:18.179 --> 00:22:22.455
Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong, I was sad and I think the same thing.

00:22:22.455 --> 00:22:23.939
They probably thought what the hell?

00:22:23.939 --> 00:22:28.836
But I'm like, but they don't know, I don't think I could have held her hand either.

00:22:29.137 --> 00:22:30.660
You know how time is divided.

00:22:30.660 --> 00:22:36.308
You know people would have known me before my mom passed away.

00:22:36.308 --> 00:22:48.318
They would have known a different Ann, and if they knew me from her last breath up until now, they would see a person who lives with a lot less fear.

00:22:48.318 --> 00:23:04.527
And I, honestly, back then I was so needy because I didn't realize my fear got in the way of me being able to do a lot of the things in life that I should have been able to do, naturally, yeah, but well, it took many years to get here.

00:23:04.527 --> 00:23:06.843
But I show up now.

00:23:06.843 --> 00:23:11.926
I say yes, now, without fear, which is crazy.

00:23:11.926 --> 00:23:18.236
Fear, which is crazy.

00:23:18.236 --> 00:23:23.125
Before, as soon as I tasted success, I would back out because I associated success with my dad's death and everything that happened after that.

00:23:23.125 --> 00:23:26.378
But now I'm ready for it.

00:23:26.378 --> 00:23:33.839
It's just so interesting the process that it took to get here, but, yeah, I'm just not that person anymore.

00:23:34.340 --> 00:23:35.403
I'm still working on it.

00:23:35.403 --> 00:24:01.926
I know, believe it or not, even though, like I've written a book and I still talk, I have this fear of failure, of failing myself, of failing others, of this fear, this fear of judgment, of, you know, the fear of what other people will think, because my identity felt like I was identifying myself as the person who was afraid all the time.

00:24:01.926 --> 00:24:05.641
So I'm learning who I am now.

00:24:05.641 --> 00:24:20.464
I'm learning to have a little bit more courage and I, you know, I'm allowing the me that had always been inside of there to come out slowly, maturely, and I am working on letting that fear go.

00:24:20.464 --> 00:24:26.721
I just started therapy again because I'm at the age where I don't want to say time's running out because I'm younger.

00:24:27.596 --> 00:24:28.741
I'll turn 50 in March.

00:24:28.741 --> 00:24:31.584
I don't want to end my life in fear.

00:24:31.584 --> 00:24:33.582
I want to have the courage.

00:24:33.582 --> 00:24:36.064
I watch everybody go out and do things like I've.

00:24:36.064 --> 00:24:37.198
You know we're friends.

00:24:37.198 --> 00:24:44.419
I've watched, you know, I see things that you're doing on with your family and I want to be there.

00:24:44.419 --> 00:24:58.337
I want to be able to have that freedom, I guess, but I want to be able to just be me and not be afraid of being me, because I'm afraid of that failure, I'm afraid, again, I go out and I talk.

00:24:58.337 --> 00:25:00.903
I'm fine talking about it.

00:25:00.903 --> 00:25:08.152
I wrote the book, I'm fine writing the book, but something that happened in therapy yesterday was so what do you need me for?

00:25:08.152 --> 00:25:12.423
Because it seems like everything's going well for you, and I said that's the problem.

00:25:12.423 --> 00:25:18.597
You see the outside well for you and I said that's the problem.

00:25:18.617 --> 00:25:35.384
You see the outside, but on the inside of me I'm afraid anxiety I want to learn how to let that go, so that I can authentically be me and not be identified by the old me, the kid that was trying to survive, you know, school and trying to do all things because that was me.

00:25:35.384 --> 00:25:43.557
So now I am, I'm slowly coming out of that shell, I'm slowly learning to not be afraid of as many things.

00:25:43.557 --> 00:25:52.480
But you know, with mental health you had to say, okay, this is the time, because I don't want to die being afraid.

00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:56.647
I won't don't want to miss out on joys that I want to, inside, do.

00:25:58.776 --> 00:26:06.303
Yeah, you know, because I'm older, sometimes I wish that I would have started this journey, you know, way many years ago.

00:26:06.785 --> 00:26:07.005
Yeah.

00:26:07.095 --> 00:26:10.201
But you know, I've had a I don't know.

00:26:10.201 --> 00:26:21.248
I don't feel like I've missed out, because I've really been living fully, you know, and if I would have not ever done this, then I would have felt like I missed out.

00:26:21.248 --> 00:26:25.904
You know, I'm reading a book called Game On by Donna Dannenfelser.

00:26:25.904 --> 00:26:31.006
It is such an inspirational book.

00:26:31.006 --> 00:26:38.167
One thing she says is dreams do come true if you believe in your ability to achieve them.

00:26:38.167 --> 00:26:47.656
And for some reason I know why I lost my ability to dream and I lost my ability to believe in myself.

00:26:47.656 --> 00:26:55.529
But you know, I really did think that I was a loser and that was my path.

00:26:55.934 --> 00:27:08.884
It's really sad that that's where I was for such a long time, yeah, but I think there's a lot of people that may be listening that feel that way and you know, again I'm right there with you.

00:27:08.884 --> 00:27:10.842
Again, I'm a little older now.

00:27:10.842 --> 00:27:16.278
I don't want to feel that way about myself and I won't say for me it was a loser, it's just I feel like a failure.

00:27:16.278 --> 00:27:22.980
Um, I just feel like people that didn't expect me to be where I'm at and I've I mean, I've come.

00:27:22.980 --> 00:27:25.928
I'm living a life that I never was supposed to live.

00:27:26.955 --> 00:27:28.941
I just wasn't supposed to have where I'm at.

00:27:29.502 --> 00:27:37.319
And so I don't want to say that you know, I haven't made some great strides and I have this beautiful life.

00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:57.709
That is not like the life I've I I had when I was growing up, but I think that there's so much more to have and then and not in a selfish way, but it's a personal way to be able to, like you said, enjoy things and and not be afraid of that um, of that success and being more confident in myself.

00:27:57.709 --> 00:28:01.506
That's that fear too, that you're not confident enough For me.

00:28:01.506 --> 00:28:18.470
I think I'm constantly going to work on it, but my hope is that I continue to better, being more confident and being letting go of that fear that keeps me from doing all the things and they're small things, the smallest things, the everyday victories.

00:28:18.470 --> 00:28:22.685
I just want to be able to do that and not be afraid to do it.

00:28:23.375 --> 00:28:55.685
Yeah, unless you've gone through it, yeah, don't realize, even doing those small things, going and enjoying things with your family and doing things without fear, people that you know normally take for granted you know, you just don't even pay attention to it because you've never maybe felt that internal fear that's so deep that you know every step you take, everywhere you go, every person that you meet, you're afraid, and that is really causing this wedge between you and the rest of the world and you being able to you meet.

00:28:55.685 --> 00:29:10.411
You're afraid and that is really causing this wedge between you and the rest of the world and you being able to, you know, become your best self or, you know, be able to show your best self to other people, and they see you as this really timid, scared person.

00:29:10.411 --> 00:29:41.317
So it's really interesting that you can become somebody that you've never been before and you didn't even realize that you could become this person, just because that fear isn't there anymore um, he was like you have to learn to live.

00:29:41.337 --> 00:29:42.140
And um, be joyful for the micro victories.

00:29:42.140 --> 00:29:45.069
There are those little victories every day, so stop waiting for the big victory to happen.

00:29:45.069 --> 00:29:45.612
That'll come.

00:29:45.612 --> 00:29:54.203
But you have to look at yourself and say you made these little victories every day, past the fear, so they're grow victories.

00:29:54.203 --> 00:30:00.751
And I started putting that in my head because I'm like, oh you know, let's be happy that I made this little success today.

00:30:00.751 --> 00:30:02.557
I wouldn't have done it yesterday.

00:30:02.557 --> 00:30:09.238
This is my, my little victory today, you know to, to come out of that identity of fear.

00:30:09.679 --> 00:30:24.328
You know, I believe that that path that I was going on kept all the positive things out, you know, and I allowed people to treat me badly because I thought that that's what I deserved.

00:30:24.328 --> 00:30:25.313
It was what I knew.

00:30:25.313 --> 00:30:26.958
It was what I knew.

00:30:26.958 --> 00:30:35.123
I allowed myself to stay in relationships way longer than I should have, even though I knew a person was abusing me.

00:30:35.123 --> 00:30:38.622
I knew that this wasn't right, but I stayed.

00:30:38.622 --> 00:30:49.469
And you know, Tina and I touched on this in our last episode and, honestly, I don't know why I did it, other than the fact that I believed that that was my path.