Certified Trauma Educators Discuss Trauma and the Difficult Task of Regulating Students in this Disregulated World: Part 1

Speaker 1: 0:08

Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne. I am Anne, and this week is a little different because Tina is off the grid doing a very treacherous trail in Hawaii. All she has is a backpack and a friend, and I've been talking with her before. She hit the trail this morning and there was a double rainbow as soon as she landed. There is a tropical storm coming her way when she is at a pretty high altitude, so she is going to batten down and pray and we're going to be praying with her and can't wait to have her back and find out all about her trip. But today we have a fill in host Carrie. She's been with us before and she is a school counselor of over 30 years and I thought that she would be perfect for this job today, since we have a special guest. Shean and Fisher is a very special teacher with the Wadsworth City Schools. She is trauma trained and is one of the chosen teachers for the Wadsworth Grizzly Academy that we talked about a couple of weeks ago. This is a school that is putting mental health above academics. They are taking care of the mental health of their staff and making sure that they are trauma informed as well, so we are so glad to have you on today, shannon.

Speaker 2: 1:29

Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here and talk with you all the day.

Speaker 1: 1:34

So tell us a little bit about your background and what led you into teaching in the first place.

Speaker 2: 1:40

Thanks for asking. So you know, everyone has things they want to be when they grow up. And when I was growing up, I always wanted to be like this or a teacher or something else, or a teacher. Teacher was always kind of my go-to, I guess, backup. And I went to the University of Dayton for my undergrad many, many years ago, and when their program is very rigorous and they start you out your freshman year doing field placements and different things, and so it just worked out that if I had gone in undecided and then decided to go into education, I would have ended up going longer. And so my mom said well, why don't you just start an education first, and if you don't like it it'll be easier to change, but at least you'll know. And so I went into it and loved it. I got my bachelor's in early childhood education in 2002. And then I got my master's in special education in 2007 from the University of Toledo and then my trauma certification from Stark Commonwealth in 2020.

Speaker 1: 2:45

So yeah, I was going to say you took your role a step further in that you have decided, yeah, a certified trauma and resilience practitioner. I mean, what does that mean?

Speaker 2: 2:56

Yeah, so basically, stark Commonwealth is a big organization up in Michigan. They do a lot of. They've been around for a very long time, and so I actually I want to say it was 2018 ish did some trauma trainings with Missy McClain. She does a lot of things out of Akron Children's. She actually came to Wasworth City Schools I'm not sure what year, but she did something with us for the whole staff for a couple hours in the morning and then I wasn't one of the integrated preschool teachers at the time and so I went to a training through that and I just kept noticing kids coming in with more challenging behaviors and at a young age, and it just really I'm someone who always wants to continue to learn. For my students, a lot of trauma training has to do with understanding our body systems and our central nervous system and how we help kids co-regulate and those kinds of things, how we work through that, how we you know the sympathetic nervous system and the autonomic nervous system and how we work with those things to help kids kind of stay regulated so that they can be successful, and so that's a lot of information. I didn't get in either of my degree programs and I was really fascinated with it, so I was looking up where you can get certified and they're one of the people that do it and it's a virtual, and so it. I actually signed up when I was on maternity with my youngest since the 2019, thinking, oh, I'll be home for four months and I can do this. And that didn't quite pan out, but I did end up finishing it over the pandemic that summer of 2020. And so it was six classes, it's 30 hours, and it talks about things like implementing trauma-informed classrooms just lots of different information, and so that's kind of how I did that, and then I just needed to take continuing credits just to recertify every year.

Speaker 1: 5:05

I mean it sounds so complicated though. I mean there's just so much more to it than I would have thought about the physical part of regulating, yeah.

Speaker 2: 5:13

Yeah, there really is, and you know, I was thinking about this this morning when I was thinking about talking with you all the day. It's so interesting because when people go to school, I mean I should say I graduated 21 years ago, so with my bachelor's, so maybe they do talk about this now in undergrad. But you know, there was a lot of like educational theory and even some of the educational psychologists like Piaget and Vagat. You know all those things. And then really that content this is what you're going to teach and here's the best practice to teach it. But it's so interesting because now there's so much more technology and they can put people in an MRI machine and see when you get a consequence, this is the part of your brain that lights up, and when you get a reward, it's actually the same part of your brain that lights up. Most people don't realize that. Oh my, yeah. And so they're actually able to see these things better now and understand. And so here we are teaching little humans, or as parents or grownups raising little humans, and we get told all of this like what and how, but we don't really get the what, like this is what's actually happening inside someone's body and the things you need to be mindful of to make sure they're the most regulated they can be so that the information really does get in there and they're getting it.

Speaker 1: 6:39

It is so interesting to me I had no idea. Yeah, as an educator with preschool and kindergartners, what have you seen over the years in the classroom? I mean, what are some of the biggest needs, would you say, shannon?

Speaker 2: 6:54

Gosh, and I'm going to be real cautious about this because I don't want to get anything specific, because I never like to talk about specific things, but I will just say generally speaking terms. I think I feel like regulation is such a buzzword now in education and parenting cycles, but I do feel like that's a big part of it. I think kids being able to attend to a task for a development, the appropriate amount of time, I think that's a little bit more difficult and I think that there's so much for people to say like, oh, maybe it's technology or social media, and sure, I think that's a piece, but I also think a piece of it is that the adults that are raising these children myself included, I have three little boys, or, and even obviously my husband, but for both of us I feel like, well, I don't know, maybe not my husband, because he's a pretty calm person all the time, nothing ruffles with others, but I just feel like there's so much more pressure, even on adults, than there used to be, and so we're all walking around dysregulated and probably don't know it, and so maybe we're not as present as we, as maybe people were with us when we were younger and that's what teaches some of those focus and attention and helps develop those skills you have said so much there.

Speaker 1: 8:29

I have talked to so many people and nobody has said that. I mean, that is a really interesting way of looking at what's going on. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 8:39

I think a lot of people like to say, oh, it's this or it's that. I think it's a lot of different things and I think everyone's just trying to do their best. No one's trying to not be present with their kids no one's trying to but they're also humans that are trying to deal with their own regulation, but no one really pays attention to that or thinks about it. We just think we're all stressed out and at a hurried pace, but really information's coming at us from everywhere all the time. Think about my parents are in their 60s. My dad will be 70 this year. When my dad grew up, there was the newspaper and the news. You didn't pick up a phone and have five million things coming at you, coming at you on your watch. I just don't think our brains are supposed to take in that much information that quickly, and so I do think that that has a piece to do with.

Speaker 1: 9:35

I just don't think our brains can handle that. And then people need to put their devices down, right? So there is that there are so many distractions that are coming at us. You are so right, as we're trying to deal with our kids at the same time and I think our parents were more present. I mean, it was just a different world.

Speaker 2: 9:56

Yes, and I don't think it's because I think everyone's, I think so. I have an Instagram that I have for parents and teachers, that I'll share tips sometimes, and I think there's lots of wonderful information out there that people are sharing. Dr Becky Kennedy is wonderful and I found her through Instagram, through social media. There's lots of really good information out there. But I think, even when you follow a lot of really great parenting accounts that give you tips and tools or teaching accounts that give you things, but then it's like all these people are still also in your head and you're trying to do all the things to be the best parent or teacher that you can be and then you're just not really being you. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's like we have to figure out a way to filter that. So we still are learning and growing, but it's not a constant barrage of it. We can only take in so much at a time, and so I think everyone's well, I think people are well-intentioned about it. I just think that Somehow it gets lost in the shuffle.

Speaker 1: 11:07

We're dealing with things that our parents didn't deal with. Yeah, social media her parents did not deal with this kind of thing, right? I mean it's so difficult for us to find that balance and to figure out what's okay and what's not okay and what to tolerate and what battles we fight, and I mean it is hard to figure out. It is, carrie, when you're in the classroom, I mean you're a counselor, you've been a counselor for over 30 years. What have you seen with what we're talking about?

Speaker 3: 11:40

I think Shannon said it amazingly that it is all the pressures and I think the students take those on from adults but they also come with their own. So I think it's just that stress and pressure and the dysregulation piece is huge. Just calming and coming in and trying to get everyone on the same page at the same time has gotten, I believe, a little bit harder and harder to do. Younger ones obviously that's developmentally appropriate, but even as we get up into the upper grades like I'm in grades three through six this year it'll be four through six but just walking through that door and they're all whatever the morning was or whatever the bus ride was, or it's just all there and they don't know what to do with it or how to work through it to get back on track, and that's a lot of what we're seeing and trying to help with.

Speaker 1: 12:42

Yeah, we had Joyce Walker, director of Student Services, in Aaron Simpson, the principal of the New Grizzly Academy. They spoke about the new program that you're going to be in Shannon and the needs of kids today. So what is going to be your role there?

Speaker 2: 12:59

Yeah, so the classes are split up K2 and then 3-4. So I'll be the K2 Gen Ed teacher and I'll have a K2 intervention specialist with me and then an RBT, a registered behavior technician, in the room as well.

Speaker 1: 13:13

I mean, it is just amazing what the Academy has put together. What do you think your day will look like with the students?

Speaker 2: 13:21

Yeah, I actually pulled that up because we worked on this a lot. We've gotten together a couple of times over the summer and before the school year ended to kind of plan some things, and I think it's really great. You know, kids are going to come in, they'll have the opportunity to have breakfast if they need to, and we're really doing a lot to make this really kind of like a family focus. So we're going to do every morning we'll all start together doing some kind of like teamwork activity or opening activity. We're going to be doing some pro-social learning. We're going to have like a morning meeting time. Something that I do often, that I've done for a lot of years, whether it was preschool or kindergarten, is I embed lots of regulation breaks throughout my day, movement breaks or regulation resets throughout the day, especially before I'm going to be doing any kind of academic teaching, because I really want to get them to a place where they're like the most regulated that they can be before they're getting that information. So we'll have time doing like a morning meeting and a regulating activity. I think then we'll probably do some academic time. They'll get some on-court time, so FizzEd, art or Music. There's going to be people coming to the Academy to do that, and then a little bit more academic time, kind of a quick check-in, lunch and recess. And then after recess we're going to do another reset, a little bit more academic time and then, like a wrap-up, free choice, reflect them a day and then they go home. So yeah, and then during that wrap-up time they can finish assignments they didn't finish or you know, they can do practice or do skill-based games or that kind of stuff, and then our counselor will be coming in as well during the day.

Speaker 1: 15:17

So you know I can't. I have never seen a district put mental health together before you know anything else, before the academics yeah, more than this district has. I mean this is absolutely amazing.

Speaker 2: 15:38

Yeah. And I think it's such a testament to the people leading our district. I've worked a lot of other places before I came to Wadsworth, sought lots of grades, kind of moved around, and I've been in Wadsworth for almost 10 years now and it truly is the best place. You know Dr Hill and Joyce Walker and Erin Simpson and Jen Thomas, all of those people, mr Moore, I mean they really and I'm not trying to like if I left anybody out, I'm not trying to do that, but those are just the people that I've worked with, you know, like helping with this school, and they're just wonderful and they really do have a student's first mentality and you don't see that everywhere. So I think it's a true testament to them and their leadership.

Speaker 3: 16:24

I think it's incredible and I am so impressed with the opportunity these students are going to have. I mean, it absolutely is a life-changing experience for them and it's just incredible to watch it unfold and watch all the key things be put into place that are needed. So just amazing, Great job.

Speaker 1: 16:47

What are some of the things that you do at your school, Carrie.

Speaker 3: 16:52

We try to do many of the things that Shannon mentioned, but obviously it's such a bigger scale with the amount of students that we have. But we've done some social and emotional learning check-ins. We have each student that fills out a form online and we have a, you know, a social and emotional learning committee and PBIS and we go through. We have a couple people so it's, you know, more of a confidential piece there. Teachers might have a check-in in their own class, but we have one school-wide that just people on the committee go through it and we prioritize. They can say what we were using different things to, like what zone are you in? We were using zones of regulation so they could say what zone they're in, they could say what it was about, they could say who they if they wanted to talk with someone and who they wanted to talk with. So we go through all of those and prioritize them. And obviously the highest need ones come to me and it's just a quick check-in. For some of them they would have never told their teacher, they would have never told anyone else, and sometimes they do tell the teacher and so it's just an opportunity, another way for them to say, hey, I need some help. I'm not okay right now, so we have that in place and just for me, doing groups in classrooms as I can and trying to bring people in to get the mental health needs met Of students. We have Red Oak, which I know Wildsworth does as well, that comes in, and then we have a few other outside counseling agencies that come in and provide programs, specific programs for the students.

Speaker 1: 18:40

You also have some anonymous, where people can come to you and talk about things that they need to within the district, within the school, anonymously.

Speaker 3: 18:51

We have the tip line that people can let us know that students in crisis or just students can fill it out parents, community members so we get it that way. Of course, we have Securely, which is a technology software that if any key words come up, then I get alerted, the principal gets alerted, school psychologist and we figure out what to do and what approach to take suicide assessment, whatever it might be.

Speaker 1: 19:27

Yeah, you have caught many kids trying to find ways to hurt themselves and things like that, and you go and let the parents know when you try to get help for the students right away.

Speaker 3: 19:38

Yes, yes, we've had many, especially with sixth graders some fifth and sixth graders who are really, really in crisis, and we've been able to work with the parents, have them assessed and it's been very helpful.

Speaker 1: 19:57

Shannon, when trauma enters a child's life, what do you think? What should teachers do?

Speaker 2: 20:06

I think the important thing for people to realize number one about trauma. I think so often when we hear trauma, we automatically think abuse, and that is obviously some of the forms of trauma. But there are actually 16 different types of trauma that a person can go through. It's on the NCTSN website. It's a house fire, loss of a loved one, bullying, all kinds of things, and so I think the most important prerequisite or step teachers can take to ensure that they're able to be there for students when they have trauma is to make sure they have a strong connection first, so students always know that they're safe, because when trauma happens, that's what kids are looking for, is safety. I think that's one piece. I think the other piece is that we have to be mindful of trauma, but we really should never be a trauma detective. So, yes, we're mandated reporters from the state. If a student says certain things, we do have to make a call, but there's a difference between that and trying to find out all the details of what happened to someone, and instead, being trauma-informed is more having a mindset of being curious, like hmm, I wonder, like something must have happened to that person because they're acting that way, or, but not trying to find out what that is. I don't know if that makes sense, but you know. And then when you do have that connection and that child does feel safe, if that child chooses to share more about the trauma, then that's the child's decision. So it's more about holding space for them and helping them feel safe and having connection than it is about, you know, finding out all the details, I guess.

Speaker 1: 22:10

If a child doesn't feel safe within the classroom and trauma is going on, I mean you can't even teach them at that point, Correct?

Speaker 2: 22:18

And you'll never know. You'll just see their behaviors because they're not going to tell you that. You know their sibling is sick with something chronic and you know this is what's happening. They're not going to, you're not going to know that information unless the parents or you know guardians tell you that. So but if the child doesn't feel like there's that connection or they don't feel safe, you're not going to get that information and You're just going to see behaviors. And not all kids who have trauma show behaviors. There's kids who I've had lots of students over the years that have had some pretty significant trauma that I've known of from their parents or guardians and you would never know. I mean trauma does not always equal Challenging or explosive behaviors, point.

Speaker 3: 23:10

I was just gonna say that was very well said that sometimes the students just want to come to school and not have to deal with the trauma or whatever is going on, and so we do provide that place. So but I agree, connection is absolutely critical. If you don't and even for academics I mean, let alone the emotional piece If they don't trust the teacher or the adults around them, then they're certainly not at their best learning. So I agree with you that that safety piece, providing that safe place in space, I liked your trauma detective. You know I have to remind the teachers, you know that's, that's not our job. Our job is just to be there if they want to share with us. And just you know we can think all we want and wonder all we want, and just being aware that there might be going Something, you know, something going on, I think for us is where I'm at, just having those check-ins. The teachers, you know, established them and had a common corner in their room and some different things where it's just Anybody can go there when they need to. And you know, I think a lot of schools have gone to that. And just you know that being trustworthy as an adult, you know, being clear, consistent, having boundaries and just you know, trying to empower students and building skills, of that social, emotional piece.

Speaker 1: 24:31

You know, now I went to school decades ago, not to give my age or anything, but yes, I am in my 50s but there were just you know, those things were just not in place for kids who had trauma. I mean, they just weren't. You know, my dad died when I was 11 years old and just one day I came home and he was gone and that changed me Forever. And when I went back to school, I can remember this one teacher and he had come, he had Got down on my level and he was like you know, if you ever need me for anything, you just let me know, and I never forgot him. Now I was also Autistic on top of that, so I never did go to him because I just really did not do well in situations like that. But you know, it is just so important to reach out to your students and, like I said, I mean I never forgot him and other Teachers that have been there for me along the way. So do you think it is hard to do that with the needs today? Do you think if classes were smaller? Because you know there's so many needs and the class sizes are pretty big now I know the Grizzly Academy is doing it smaller, but do you think of classes were smaller that teachers could do that more? Um?

Speaker 2: 25:54

You know, I think it's about what you build into your day and so I think you are able to do it even if you have over 20 kids. I think it's what you put the focus on. So you know, like Carrie said, doing check-ins is really important, but I just think taking the time to get to know each kid whether it's and I actually I Actually every year have this it's gonna sound like really hokey, but I track my positive interactions with kids, so I have all their names on a thing and I just put a hashtag like did I have a positive interaction with this kid today? Obviously I want to have one with every day, but let's say I notice like Susie got five and I only gave Johnny one or two. Then I like make a mental note for the next day. You know, I think you know to go ahead and do that, to try to to do more. But I think kids, all kids, you know are good inside. All kids Are excited for people to feel like people care about them and are paying attention to them and see them, and I honestly I think isn't that we all want as humans. We all want to be seen and heard and understood and validated, and I just think. I mean I could go on about this forever, but I think it would be a very different world if we were just all seen and heard and understood and validated. Then it doesn't mean people agree with you but you don't take away salmon's humanness because you have a disagreement with them. The world needs to hear that. Yes and yeah. And I just think I mean even when I think about my boys at home. If, let's say I, so my husband is also a teacher, he also. You has now started coaching football again, which he did when we were first married and had our first son, and then he stopped and now he's doing it again, and so I. He teaches middle school, so he leaves at 6 30 in the morning and I get everybody out the door to go where we're going. My boys are seven, five and three, so we'll have second grade in kindergarten this year. And then I have my three year old and During he normally picks up during the school year because he gets out first, but during football season I pick up. So there are days that I come home, because you know, if you have kids at home, sometimes you've already worked a morning, a full-time job, just trying to get people out the door and fed and dressed, and Then you go to your job and you work a full job and then you try to pick them up and scoop up all the pieces and come home and make dinner, and so even just saying that makes me feel dysregulated. And then we wonder why? For, like, snapping in our kids. You know, and so even for me, even with all of this training that I have, there are times with my boys when I've like it's been a morning, it's been a day at school, I'm just like can we just go through the drive, through a McDonald's or could a pizza for dinner? And Something happens and I like snap, and I lose it and I say, if you do that again, you're going to bed earlier. If you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you're not going to get ice cream or whatever. And I just think when, in those moments, when we look at kids behaviors like that, we do, we don't. We see the behavior, we see the thing that's frustrating us and we go into fight or flight mode because we're going to fight the behavior, because it's annoying us or upsetting us, and we don't always see the human, the child, behind the behavior, and so I think how different would it be to handle things that way, like to still see the person like the behavior is just a symptom of something. Either they're tired, or they're hungry, or they're just regulated, or they're stressed out or you know all the things. The behavior is just an outward symptom of something it's, but it doesn't define who they are.

Speaker 1: 29:46

So we just had a situation recently with my daughter that was really extreme and I was just immediately went to that well, you're going to lose this and you're going to lose that. And I often, when I back out of something like that, I tell myself you know, there was a reason behind that and I think that's a good thing, and I need to, and I even said why, and she's like I don't know, when I really believe she doesn't know. So it's kind of like that getting down on their level, like that one teacher did with me, and you know, you just say let's try to help you figure this out together and instead of just trying to correct the behavior because there has to be a reason why.

Speaker 2: 30:32

Yeah, and you know kind of oh sorry, carrie.

Speaker 3: 30:35

Okay, I was just gonna say that's a co regulation piece that sometimes this hard to do as a parent, like when you have that, that's so hard.

Speaker 2: 30:45

Oh for sure, Because then you, like you, have to regulate yourself. You can't. How are you going to co regulate someone else if you're not regulated? That's what's so hard. But you know, I feel like I kind of went on this tangent. But going back to your question about is it hard to do with the needs today, I think if you make it a priority to have some type of connection with each kid every day, even if it's just a quick passing thing, but to get to actually know that kid and who they are, I think you're you are able to do that, even if your class size is larger, because they do feel like you see them. You're already planting the seeds each day, little by little, to let them know that they're seen and heard. So then when something does come up, they already know that you care and they're not as defensive about it. Yeah, I love.

Speaker 1: 31:31

Go ahead, Carrie. I'm sorry.

Speaker 3: 31:32

I was just gonna say I did not find your tracking positive interactions with kids. Hokey, I think it's an amazing, amazing idea in one that I'm going to work on having our staff, even the secretary of the principal, your specials, kind of keep an eye on that this year. I think that would make a huge, huge impact. And I do think class size, you know, for those teachers who do that, that's just their unnatural part of who they are as a teacher. I think you're right that you find the time and you make the connection and you do it daily. Like you said, if I notice you know one didn't get that interaction, then you do, you know, prioritize that the next day. But I think for teachers who that that academic piece is stronger for them than the emotional piece, I think it is harder with the larger class sizes, you know, along with the stress of trying to meet the standards and everything. But I agree with you, shannon, and I love tracking that positive interaction with kids.

Speaker 1: 32:37

We're going to stop our podcast there. This is going to be part one of our interview with Shannon Fisher. I want to thank Shannon and Carrie for coming today. Teachers are just not appreciated as much and we just thank you so much for coming on and sharing, and we will have part two next week. Until next time,